[00:00:00] Speaker 02: 24-2091, Cruz v. City of Deming. [00:00:07] Speaker 03: Good morning. [00:00:08] Speaker 03: May I please the Court, counsel? [00:00:10] Speaker 03: My name is Erlinda Johnson and I represent plaintiffs, appellants, Ernestina Cruz et al. [00:00:16] Speaker 03: The District Court erred in granting summary judgment to the City of Deming and the individual City of Deming officers. [00:00:22] Speaker 03: And as the Court knows, this Court's review is de novo. [00:00:25] Speaker 03: This court must view the evidence and the reasonable inferences from that evidence in the light most favorable to plaintiffs. [00:00:33] Speaker 03: In this case, the district court improperly weighed evidence and determined disputed issues of material fact. [00:00:40] Speaker 03: In fact, pursuant to Toland v. Cotton, in ruling on a motion for summary judgment, the court [00:00:46] Speaker 03: is not allowed to determine the truth of the matter, but just to determine whether there is a genuine issue for trial. [00:00:54] Speaker 02: In this case... What would be some of the disputed facts that the district court overlooked? [00:01:02] Speaker 03: the statement from one of the Deming officers, Officer David Acosta, who was there witnessing the events live. [00:01:10] Speaker 03: He stated that at the time Mr. Valencia was shot, he did not shoot because he did not feel threatened. [00:01:17] Speaker 03: That informs this court's decision on the reasonableness of the officer's actions. [00:01:22] Speaker 03: And not only that, it informs this court's decision on whether or not at the moment Mr. Valencia was shot, [00:01:29] Speaker 03: he was posing an immediate threat to officers. [00:01:31] Speaker 03: The other fact that the court ignored is the testimony by affidavit of plaintiff's use of force expert who testified that he viewed the video in this case and particularly the movements of that toy weapon Mr. Valencia had and that at no time did that barrel of the gun shift or rotate or point towards the officer's directions. [00:01:55] Speaker 02: How many officers actually fired? [00:01:58] Speaker 03: There were at least three officers who fired on Mr. Valencia, but there was essentially a firing squad of officers in front of Mr. Valencia. [00:02:07] Speaker 03: The other piece of testimony that the court ignored was the testimony by affidavit of the scene reconstruction expert who testified that based on Mr. Valencia's wound tracks, it was consistent with Mr. Valencia being shot as he was going down to the ground, [00:02:27] Speaker 03: and also being shot when he was already on the ground. [00:02:30] Speaker 02: Your Honors, we... We're here on qualified immunity, of course. [00:02:37] Speaker 02: What's the case that you think best supports getting to a jury here? [00:02:43] Speaker 02: You know, that the Graham factors, you know, don't apply in favor of the officers. [00:02:48] Speaker 02: What's the clearly established case that you want us to focus on if we write an opinion in your favor? [00:02:56] Speaker 03: So you're talking about the second factor whether or not that right was clearly established. [00:03:01] Speaker 03: This court held in Ceballos, a state of Ceballos versus Husk and as well as in Allen versus City of Muskogee that the officer's actions in this case were [00:03:14] Speaker 03: clearly were unreasonable and Mr. Valencia had a clearly established right to be free from unreasonable seizure in this case. [00:03:23] Speaker 03: I want to go back to the first prong of the test, which is whether or not a constitutional right was violated. [00:03:29] Speaker 03: The court employs the three factors set forth in Graham versus Connor, which looks at the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to officers at the time he was shot, [00:03:41] Speaker 03: And number three, whether he was actively resisting or evading arrest. [00:03:45] Speaker 03: As it relates to the first gram factor, the severity of the crime at issue, this court actually ruled in a state of smart versus city of Wachita that, in fact, Judge McHugh was the author of that opinion, that viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to plaintiffs, it was unreasonable for officers to conclude [00:04:05] Speaker 03: that the decedent was committing a crime. [00:04:09] Speaker 03: In this case, there was a call to 911 of an individual walking on the interstate with a gun. [00:04:16] Speaker 03: The caller did state that she did not know if the gun was real, and there was information provided to the officers. [00:04:25] Speaker 01: Should they infer that it's not real? [00:04:27] Speaker 03: If you look at the evidence in the light most favorable to plaintiffs, yes, the inference is that it was not real, because in addition... I mean, you were supposed to draw reasonable inferences. [00:04:36] Speaker 01: You're not entitled to inferences that don't make any sense. [00:04:43] Speaker 03: The reasonable inference, Your Honor, in addition to the fact that the caller said she didn't know the gun was real, was that there were no casings found on the interstate [00:04:51] Speaker 03: And also, there was information provided to the police via radio that it was unknown if the individual was shooting at traffic. [00:04:59] Speaker 03: But more importantly, when he was encountered in the desert with this toy rifle strapped across his chest, it was pointing downward. [00:05:07] Speaker 03: And more importantly, it was missing a stock, it was missing a magazine, and it had residual orange paint on the tip. [00:05:16] Speaker 04: Excellent vision on the part of the officers. [00:05:21] Speaker 04: I mean we we have to look at these cases understanding first of all they got a report of an active shooter and They he matched the description and They were pretty with 40 feet. [00:05:35] Speaker 04: I think away. [00:05:36] Speaker 04: I'm trying to remember it was indeterminate your honor well [00:05:40] Speaker 04: But, you know, it's one thing to go back and to look in super slow-mo at the videos and determine that there's a magazine missing. [00:05:51] Speaker 04: But we're dealing with officers making a decision in a split second. [00:05:58] Speaker 03: That is true, but you have Officer David Acosta, the same officer who stated that he did not feel threatened. [00:06:04] Speaker 03: at the time he was shot. [00:06:05] Speaker 03: He stated that he saw that there was something off with that gun. [00:06:10] Speaker 03: It didn't have a magazine. [00:06:11] Speaker 03: You have an officer who was lined up in the same formation as the other officers who stated he saw it didn't have a magazine. [00:06:20] Speaker 03: And this court in the state of Smart v. City of Wichita did note that although there was evidence that Mr. Smart was an active shooter, given the disputed facts about [00:06:33] Speaker 03: when the officers encountered Mr. Smart, the reasonable inference from that evidence was that he was not an active shooter. [00:06:40] Speaker 04: Well, in Smart, the officers were granted qualified immunity, but there was a break and then some final shots, or that's what the allegations were. [00:06:53] Speaker 03: And this case is very analogous to Smart because it brings me to a point I was going to address later, but I'll address it now. [00:07:03] Speaker 03: officers shooting an individual 20 times, perforating his body at least 10 times, that is unreasonable. [00:07:11] Speaker 03: That is exactly what happened in this case. [00:07:13] Speaker 04: The reasonable inference from... It's unreasonable per se in every case? [00:07:17] Speaker 03: Well, Your Honors, we have here the testimony by affidavit of Aaron Brudnall, the scene reconstruction. [00:07:23] Speaker 03: who testified that based on the wound tracks of the injuries Mr. Valencia sustained, he was going downward at the time, the exact time he was shot, and he was also shot when he was already on the ground, very similar to what happened to Mr. Smart. [00:07:39] Speaker 04: Well, the difference in Smart is that there was shooting, a pause of a noticeable amount [00:07:47] Speaker 04: interaction with a bystander who claimed, the bystander's testimony was, that he looked at the officer and shook his head [00:07:56] Speaker 04: and the officer then turned again and shot Mr. Smart twice while he was already on the ground with the gun no more near him. [00:08:05] Speaker 04: We had all of the shots here, I think six seconds. [00:08:09] Speaker 03: But they were fired when Mr. Valencia, and this is a disputed fact, they were fired when Mr. Valencia was either on his way down to the ground and as well as when he was on the ground. [00:08:22] Speaker 02: Your Honor, the second- I don't think your argument really turns on [00:08:25] Speaker 02: the number of bullets. [00:08:26] Speaker 02: Wouldn't you have the same argument here if there was just one fatal shot? [00:08:31] Speaker 03: We would have the same argument, but we have additional argument in this case pursuant to Fancher versus Barrientos and Pereira versus Paca, as well as Smart, that in addition to being shot when he was on his way down, he was also shot when he was already on the ground. [00:08:50] Speaker 02: In a case like this where you have multiple responding officers that are standing in different positions, have different perspectives, our case here is informed by the body cam footage. [00:09:05] Speaker 02: But one officer can see one thing that he doesn't perceive as a threat. [00:09:12] Speaker 02: and yet at the same time an officer with a different perspective of the scene can perceive the threat. [00:09:20] Speaker 02: And so you can have, you know, you've cited to one officer that didn't feel he was threatened but at least three of the officers, you know, arguably perceived it differently. [00:09:32] Speaker 03: That alone creates a disputed material fact because you're making a finding about whether the officer [00:09:38] Speaker 03: was at a different perspective. [00:09:40] Speaker 03: This is analogous to a recent Ninth Circuit opinion of Cologne versus City of San Jose wherein the Ninth Circuit reversed a grant of motion for summary judgment because [00:09:52] Speaker 03: the shooting officer perceived that Mr. Colon was bowing out his arms to produce a gun, another officer stated or testified that he did not see that. [00:10:03] Speaker 03: And that's exactly what we have in this case. [00:10:06] Speaker 03: So we have, and this court has held, when video evidence [00:10:10] Speaker 03: can show or be subject to numerous interpretations, and it can support the plaintiff's position or version of facts as well as a defendant's version of facts. [00:10:19] Speaker 03: It is for the jury to make that determination, and that's what plaintiffs are arguing. [00:10:24] Speaker 04: Well, here the district court viewed the video itself and said it's clear and I can tell, and did [00:10:35] Speaker 04: In that instance, why does the district court have to defer to an expert who did no more than review the same video that the district court reviewed? [00:10:45] Speaker 03: Well, what the district court did here, which is not allowed by Toland versus Cotton, is the district court actually made findings and gave the video its own interpretation. [00:10:54] Speaker 01: When you have an officer, even if you disregard... Well, what did the district court... Don't just tell us she made inappropriate findings. [00:11:01] Speaker 01: Tell us what she found. [00:11:03] Speaker 03: She found that at the time the officer shot Mr. Valencia, the rifle barrel rotated towards the officers, prompting the officers to shoot. [00:11:15] Speaker 03: However, when you have another officer who says, I didn't feel threatened, and it is unknown... That's very general. [00:11:22] Speaker 01: That is very general compared to her findings. [00:11:25] Speaker 01: She said the barrel rotated. [00:11:27] Speaker 01: What's the conflicting fact, other than I didn't feel threatened? [00:11:32] Speaker 01: I mean, that could be, maybe he didn't, but it doesn't mean that the barrel didn't rotate. [00:11:38] Speaker 03: Well, all three of you, I'm sure, either have looked at or will look at this video and may reach a different conclusion. [00:11:45] Speaker 03: That alone creates a disputed issue of material fact because the court is making a finding that that barrel rotates. [00:11:53] Speaker 03: You have a plaintiff's expert. [00:11:55] Speaker 03: who is a reasonable retired law enforcement officer who analyzed the movements of that barrel and noted that the barrel did not point towards the officers. [00:12:03] Speaker 01: That's not the same thing. [00:12:06] Speaker 01: She agreed with that. [00:12:07] Speaker 01: She agreed with the expert to the extent he said that it wasn't pointing at the officers. [00:12:13] Speaker 03: Well, her finding focused on Mr. Valencia putting his hand temporarily on the weapon. [00:12:20] Speaker 03: That is a reasonable consequence of being ordered [00:12:23] Speaker 03: Gilbert, get on your stomach now. [00:12:25] Speaker 03: He is going to move the barrel, excuse me, the gun aside to go onto his stomach. [00:12:31] Speaker 04: Well, she did find, as Judge Carson says, that the barrel started rotating in the direction of the officers, didn't get all the way there. [00:12:43] Speaker 04: because they fired. [00:12:46] Speaker 04: So I'm not sure that the findings are really that different from the expert's findings. [00:12:54] Speaker 03: But under the second Graham factor, the issue is whether or not Mr. Valencia posed an immediate threat at the time that he was shot. [00:13:02] Speaker 04: Is whether every reasonable officer would understand [00:13:07] Speaker 04: that he did not pose an immediate threat at the time. [00:13:12] Speaker 04: That is, I believe, the standard. [00:13:14] Speaker 03: But when you have an officer who is there saying, I did not feel threatened, that creates a dispute and it should be decided by a jury. [00:13:23] Speaker 04: But it's not whether any one random officer would not feel threatened. [00:13:28] Speaker 04: It's whether every reasonable officer would not feel threatened. [00:13:33] Speaker 04: So you're saying that because one didn't shoot, [00:13:38] Speaker 04: that that means that the other three acted unreasonably? [00:13:41] Speaker 03: Well, it creates a material dispute that should be decided by the jury because he said I did not feel threatened. [00:13:48] Speaker 03: He didn't just say I didn't shoot. [00:13:49] Speaker 03: He said I didn't shoot because I did not feel threatened. [00:13:52] Speaker 03: So that creates a dispute that should be decided by the jury. [00:13:56] Speaker 03: I want to briefly talk about the [00:13:59] Speaker 03: state court's decision on the State Tort Claims Act. [00:14:04] Speaker 03: Even if this court affirms the district court on the Fourth Amendment, the court must reverse on the State Tort Claims Act. [00:14:11] Speaker 03: In granting summary judgment on the assault and battery, the district court employed the test, the objectiveness test. [00:14:19] Speaker 03: However, under Hernandez v. Parker, the New Mexico Court of Appeals held that the test under the New Mexico Tort Claims Act is both a subjective [00:14:29] Speaker 03: and an objective test, and it is very different from the Fourth Amendment, and it should be decided by a jury. [00:14:36] Speaker 02: What are the disputed facts on the subjective elements? [00:14:39] Speaker 03: Well, the district court, contrary to this court, to what this court cautioned in Pauley v. White, which was reversed on other grounds, relied solely on the self-serving subjective affidavits of the officers who provided affidavits, but did not consider the statements by Officer Acosta [00:14:58] Speaker 03: the inference from Mr. Brunel, the scene reconstruction expert, the inference from his testimony that Mr. Valencia was shot as he was going downward. [00:15:07] Speaker 03: And also Mr. Cope, we'd ask that the court reverse. [00:15:11] Speaker 03: And finally, Your Honors, on count three, the court's finding that the city of Deming is not a law enforcement officer, it's contrary to established New Mexico law. [00:15:20] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:15:21] Speaker 02: Thank you, Counsel. [00:15:24] Speaker 02: Mr. Dahl? [00:15:28] Speaker 00: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:15:32] Speaker 00: Alan Dahl, on behalf of the defendants, I'm here with my co-counsel, Blaine Minot. [00:15:38] Speaker 00: Don't reach for the gun. [00:15:40] Speaker 00: Let go. [00:15:40] Speaker 00: Don't touch it again. [00:15:43] Speaker 00: Those were three commands that were given by Deming police to an alleged active shooter, Mr. Valencia. [00:15:48] Speaker 00: And yet, notwithstanding those three clear commands, a few moments later, Mr. Valencia did reach for the gun once again. [00:15:54] Speaker 00: He reached down. [00:15:56] Speaker 00: He grabbed it by its barrel, lifted it up, [00:15:58] Speaker 00: pulling it in front of him, placing it in his right hand, and in doing so, shifting the barrel closer towards officers. [00:16:05] Speaker 00: Under those circumstances, the lower court found that lethal force was reasonable. [00:16:11] Speaker 00: We're asking that this court affirm the lower court's grant of summary judgment for two reasons. [00:16:16] Speaker 00: First, the lower court relied on well-established 10th Circuit precedent as well as the undisputed video evidence before making the determination that the use of force was objectively reasonable. [00:16:28] Speaker 00: and did not violate the Fourth Amendment. [00:16:31] Speaker 00: Second, the lower court also relied on the sworn and unrebutted statements of officers showing that the use of force was subjectively reasonable and therefore did not violate New Mexico law with its unique standard. [00:16:48] Speaker 00: Before I get into the objective reasonableness standard, I did want to clarify a matter respecting the plaintiff's argument. [00:16:56] Speaker 00: It appears that the plaintiff's argument focuses on the Acosta statement primarily as the basis for a dispute of fact. [00:17:03] Speaker 00: So Officer Acosta did say the reason he didn't fire was because he didn't feel threatened. [00:17:07] Speaker 00: That being said, that statement is taken out of context. [00:17:11] Speaker 00: If you look at the entire account that Acosta gives, his post-incident interview, he states that he was speaking to himself in his head and said, if he touches the gun again, Mr. Valencia, that is, if he touches the gun again, I'm going to fire. [00:17:28] Speaker 00: Officer Acosta was ready to use force. [00:17:32] Speaker 00: And as this court observed in both Larsen v. Muir and in [00:17:38] Speaker 00: Taylor versus Salt Lake City, it doesn't really matter whether an officer chooses to shoot or not. [00:17:44] Speaker 00: The question is whether the officer is ready to use force, whether under the perspective of a reasonable officer on scene, the suspect presented an immediate threat of harm. [00:17:56] Speaker 00: So this leads me to the objective reasonableness standard. [00:18:00] Speaker 00: As you know, if use of force is objectively reasonable, then it doesn't violate the Fourth Amendment. [00:18:06] Speaker 00: Grant v. Connor gives us, obviously, a few factors to consider. [00:18:09] Speaker 00: But the most important one is whether or not the suspect presents an immediate threat of harm. [00:18:15] Speaker 00: That is also the strongest point for the defense in this case, because Mr. Valencia did present an immediate threat of harm. [00:18:20] Speaker 00: But to understand why, you have to look at the entire context of this interaction. [00:18:25] Speaker 00: And it starts on the morning of February 3rd when officers are first called out to the report of a man with a gun wandering around town. [00:18:32] Speaker 00: They go out. [00:18:33] Speaker 00: They can't find him. [00:18:35] Speaker 00: They close the call. [00:18:37] Speaker 00: Shortly thereafter, dispatch announces shots fired. [00:18:41] Speaker 00: There's a male in the median of Interstate 10 carrying a rifle. [00:18:46] Speaker 00: Now, the plaintiff said, well, the caller said she didn't know if the gun was real or not. [00:18:54] Speaker 00: If you look at the CADDA report on page 9 of the second volume of the appendix, and that's the court's page numbering, you'll see that there is a report of shooting from the median, then unknown if actually shooting, and then again, to bookend it, shooting. [00:19:12] Speaker 00: So a reasonable officer would assume that there is an active shooter on the interstate. [00:19:19] Speaker 04: Were the officers told that it might be a toy gun? [00:19:22] Speaker 00: No, Your Honor. [00:19:23] Speaker 00: You can scour the record, and you will find nowhere where officers were told it was a toy gun or a fake gun. [00:19:28] Speaker 00: There was never a question as to the authenticity of the gun. [00:19:31] Speaker 00: And in fact, the suspect confirmed the authenticity of the gun to officers. [00:19:37] Speaker 00: After they made contact with him, they told him to put his hands up, which he did, temporarily. [00:19:44] Speaker 00: And then he put him down. [00:19:45] Speaker 00: Then they told him to get on his knees. [00:19:48] Speaker 00: He got on his knees, but then he pulled the weapon in front of him. [00:19:51] Speaker 00: That led them to say, don't touch it again. [00:19:54] Speaker 00: Let go. [00:19:55] Speaker 00: In response to that, he did put his hands up again. [00:19:59] Speaker 00: And he responded to them, Judge McHugh, I was shooting at rabbits. [00:20:06] Speaker 00: And if you watch the video, Officer Autogone's video, and you look at the affidavits of the officers, you'll see that he did say, I'm shooting at rabbits. [00:20:16] Speaker 00: Now, the suspect, [00:20:19] Speaker 00: is telling these officers, confirming their suspicions, this is a real gun. [00:20:23] Speaker 00: He's not admitting that he was an active shooter, but he's telling them, this is a weapon. [00:20:27] Speaker 00: I use it to shoot at things. [00:20:30] Speaker 00: And this is the information that they have now received. [00:20:34] Speaker 00: He gets on his knees. [00:20:35] Speaker 00: Again, they tell him to keep his hands up, to show his hands. [00:20:40] Speaker 00: And they ask him to get on his stomach. [00:20:43] Speaker 00: In response, he reaches where officers cannot see, [00:20:47] Speaker 00: and he withdraws a dark object, it appears to be a wallet, and flashes it at the officers. [00:20:52] Speaker 00: They tell him again to get on his stomach. [00:20:55] Speaker 00: He puts his wallet away, and then rather than following the command, or even a foreseeable consequence of that command, he reaches down with his left hand, grabs the barrel of the weapon, pulls it up, puts it into his right hand, so now his right hand is closer to the trigger. [00:21:13] Speaker 00: And with that motion, he rotates the barrel so that it's now closer to officers than it was before. [00:21:18] Speaker 00: This is what prompts the lethal shooting of Mr. Valencia, because these officers reasonably, objectively reasonably believed that he presented an immediate threat of harm. [00:21:29] Speaker 02: Did the officers have any reason to believe he was undergoing a psychiatric episode, mental health crisis? [00:21:37] Speaker 00: No, Your Honor, not in that specific instance. [00:21:40] Speaker 00: There was background information. [00:21:42] Speaker 00: A lot of these officers had interacted with Mr. Valencia in the past and knew that he could have psychiatric issues. [00:21:49] Speaker 00: Now, when an officer is facing a suspect and there is a question as to that suspect's mental health, this court recently acknowledged in Alcala, that Alcala de Ortega, which came out this year, that when that's the case, [00:22:05] Speaker 00: the mental health of the suspect takes a backseat to the immediate safety of the officer. [00:22:11] Speaker 00: And so even if they thought that he might be having a mental health crisis, which none of them indicated they thought, that still would take a backseat to officers responding to the immediate threat in front of them. [00:22:22] Speaker 04: Did some of the officers that had had prior contact with him know that he carried toy guns? [00:22:29] Speaker 00: There were a couple of officers who knew he carried BB or pellet guns. [00:22:34] Speaker 00: I wouldn't classify those as toy guns, because they can still inflict great bodily damage. [00:22:39] Speaker 00: But they knew that he had carried those in the past, though the officers who knew that have also stated in their affidavits that this was not one of the weapons that they had previously seen. [00:22:50] Speaker 02: New Mexico law, going over to the state tort claims, generally [00:22:58] Speaker 02: considers it a fact question for the subjective element. [00:23:02] Speaker 02: Why isn't there enough in this record at least to satisfy that understanding of New Mexico state law? [00:23:10] Speaker 00: Your Honor, because there is no countervailing evidence of the subjective impressions of the officers, it seems that meeting that or challenging that subjective element is a very tall order. [00:23:27] Speaker 00: The example I would give of where there might be a question of fact for the subjective element would be with Officer Acosta. [00:23:34] Speaker 00: So with Officer Acosta, if he had shot, which he didn't, but if Officer Acosta had shot and then subsequently said, I wasn't afraid, I wasn't worried about anything, then you have an issue about that subjective element, right? [00:23:46] Speaker 00: Well, wait a minute. [00:23:48] Speaker 00: So subjectively, you weren't afraid, but you chose to shoot. [00:23:51] Speaker 00: That wasn't the case for any of the shooting officers. [00:23:53] Speaker 00: All of them have given sworn statements saying, the reason why I shot was because I was in fear for my life or the life of the other people around me. [00:24:03] Speaker 04: So it's going to be a pretty rare case where you could have a jury question on subjective knowledge? [00:24:12] Speaker 00: I expect it will be extremely rare, Your Honor, but not unheard of, as with the Acosta example. [00:24:19] Speaker 00: Just as an aside, the subjective objective test was borrowed from Amger. [00:24:24] Speaker 00: And Amger cites to a case out of Washington, DC, if you look at the citations for that standard. [00:24:30] Speaker 00: And in that case, there was an officer who was off duty, who was with a prostitute, and was attacked by an individual with a knife. [00:24:40] Speaker 00: The person stabbed him. [00:24:41] Speaker 00: The officer got out of his car. [00:24:42] Speaker 00: He told the person running away that he was an officer. [00:24:45] Speaker 00: The person stopped and said, well, I know what you know. [00:24:49] Speaker 00: We know what's going on here, so let's just drop it. [00:24:53] Speaker 00: And he turns around, and the officer shoots him. [00:24:56] Speaker 00: Now, that created a subjective issue, because although the court found that objectively it was reasonable to shoot this person with a knife who had just stabbed an officer, subjectively there was no evidence in the record as to why he shot that individual. [00:25:09] Speaker 00: Was it because he wanted to hide his ill deeds? [00:25:11] Speaker 00: Or was it because he really thought there was a threat? [00:25:14] Speaker 00: So there is a possibility of finding a subjective question, but it's going to be very rare. [00:25:20] Speaker 00: And in this case, there's simply no evidence that these officers acted out of ill intent. [00:25:25] Speaker 00: They shot because they feared for their lives. [00:25:28] Speaker 00: You can hear it in their voices, even in the video. [00:25:31] Speaker 00: And that's really the most important thing about this case. [00:25:34] Speaker 00: This entire interaction, Your Honors, was captured on video from when the officers first approached Mr. Valencia until well after the shooting has occurred. [00:25:45] Speaker 04: And the shooting total of six seconds? [00:25:47] Speaker 04: Am I right about that? [00:25:48] Speaker 00: The shooting was a total of three seconds, Your Honor. [00:25:51] Speaker 00: It was a total of three seconds, which was found to be a reasonable amount of time to assess whether or not the circumstances had changed in the Palacios case. [00:26:00] Speaker 00: Three seconds goes by very quickly in a tense situation like that. [00:26:03] Speaker 04: And there's no break. [00:26:05] Speaker 00: There's no break in shooting. [00:26:06] Speaker 04: It's not like he's no danger and then they continue. [00:26:10] Speaker 00: Exactly. [00:26:10] Speaker 00: It's not like the estate is smart or the. [00:26:13] Speaker 00: Fancher Barrientos case, this is a situation where it's one burst of shooting for a maximum of three seconds and that is it. [00:26:21] Speaker 00: After the shooting is over and the dust has cleared, Mr. Valencia is still alive at that point and still has the gun in his possession and officers continue to yell to get his hands off of it, not to touch it. [00:26:34] Speaker 00: So even after the shooting, they were still afraid that he had possession of this weapon, but they didn't recommence. [00:26:41] Speaker 04: Let me focus you on an argument that the plaintiff is making that where their expert viewed the video and testified that no reasonable officer would feel in danger based on what the expert saw in that video. [00:27:03] Speaker 04: The district court looked at the video and said, [00:27:07] Speaker 04: It's not a constitutional violation because they were in danger and acted reasonably. [00:27:18] Speaker 04: We now can look and have looked at the video. [00:27:23] Speaker 04: What do we do with the fact that we have this expert who has a different view of what the video shows than maybe we do or the district court did? [00:27:34] Speaker 04: And I don't know what they think, by the way. [00:27:40] Speaker 00: There's two issues with that, with the use of the expert. [00:27:43] Speaker 00: First, the expert has to give [00:27:47] Speaker 00: specialized information or insight. [00:27:50] Speaker 00: Simply reviewing a video and reciting what he's seen and his impressions of it is not valid expert testimony. [00:27:58] Speaker 00: Second of all, viewing a video and saying what a reasonable officer should have perceived or could have perceived was rejected by this court in Palacios v. Fortuna as 2020 hindsight analysis. [00:28:12] Speaker 00: You are able to watch the video. [00:28:14] Speaker 00: There's no dispute as to the authenticity of the video. [00:28:17] Speaker 00: The video is very clear. [00:28:20] Speaker 00: There's actually multiple angles. [00:28:21] Speaker 00: There's the video from Officer Otagon and Officer Paz showing the incident. [00:28:25] Speaker 00: Officer Paz clearly shows that rotation in action. [00:28:30] Speaker 00: Because it is so clear, because there's no dispute, [00:28:33] Speaker 00: It's not helpful to have an expert look at it. [00:28:35] Speaker 00: It's a question of law at that point, because there is no dispute of fact. [00:28:39] Speaker 00: So there's no need for an expert to give an opinion on his view of the video when you're equally capable of watching it and coming to a determination. [00:28:49] Speaker 00: Now, the other expert that was brought up was the CSI expert, Aaron Brudinel, who opined on the aspects of the gun showing that it was not operable. [00:29:01] Speaker 00: The problem with that [00:29:02] Speaker 00: As was pointed out is that his opinion is not taken from the perspective of an officer on scene. [00:29:09] Speaker 00: He was able to look at photos and he says in his report. [00:29:11] Speaker 00: that he did look at photos of the gun, there is no way that you could see orange specks on the tip of that gun from the perspective of the officers. [00:29:21] Speaker 00: Although Officer Acosta did mention the absence of a magazine, that doesn't mean that that gun cannot be harmful. [00:29:28] Speaker 00: It also doesn't say anything about where a magazine might be located, given that Mr. Valencia had pockets with objects inside of them. [00:29:35] Speaker 04: So your point is there could have been one in the chamber? [00:29:38] Speaker 00: Yes, Your Honor, absolutely. [00:29:40] Speaker 00: And when the suspect is here telling you that he's been shooting, you reasonably an officer would have to assume that that was the case. [00:29:48] Speaker 00: Ultimately, Your Honors, this court has repeatedly found officers are not expected to gamble with their lives. [00:29:54] Speaker 00: To quote Valencia, a reasonable officer would see a suspect who just picked up his gun and brought it in front of him, ignoring officer commands, [00:30:04] Speaker 00: as making a hostile motion. [00:30:06] Speaker 00: That's what happened here, and for those reasons, Your Honors, we ask that you affirm the lower court. [00:30:10] Speaker 02: Thank you.