[00:00:00] Speaker 03: Phase number 20-1791. [00:00:02] Speaker 03: Foutatneft vs. Ukraine. [00:00:04] Speaker 03: Chair of Mr. Pavlo Petrenko, Minister of Justice of Balance. [00:00:08] Speaker 03: Ms. [00:00:08] Speaker 03: Kostitska for the appellant. [00:00:10] Speaker 03: Mr. MacDonald for the appellee. [00:00:12] Speaker 02: Good morning, Council. [00:00:13] Speaker 02: Ms. [00:00:13] Speaker 02: Kostitska, please proceed when you're ready. [00:00:16] Speaker 03: Good morning. [00:00:16] Speaker 03: Your Honours, may it please the Court, in the interest of time, I will address two grounds for appeal, illegality and form of inconvenience, and answer any questions you may have regarding the two other grounds, arbitrator bias and excess of subject matter jurisdiction. [00:00:30] Speaker 03: Illegality. [00:00:31] Speaker 03: The award that .NET seeks to enforce is based on illegality. [00:00:36] Speaker 03: Enforcement should be denied under Article 5 of the New York Convention. [00:00:39] Speaker 03: First, due to the limited scope of Ukraine's offer to arbitrate disputes relating to legal investments under Article 5.1c. [00:00:48] Speaker 03: And second, due to the American public policy against illegality under Article 5.2b. [00:00:54] Speaker 03: If the court were to allow enforcement, it would lend its aid and reward illegality. [00:00:59] Speaker 03: The vast majority of Tatnav's claims is for the loss of its indirect shareholding for Tatnavta, a Ukrainian company. [00:01:05] Speaker 03: The indirect shareholding was acquired using promissory notes, essentially promises to pay. [00:01:10] Speaker 03: Ukrainian law prohibited capitalizing a company with promissory notes. [00:01:14] Speaker 03: The public policy reasons behind the prohibition were similar to those of the DC code, such as promissory notes often proved to be uncollectible, [00:01:24] Speaker 03: If promissory notes were counted part of the stated capital, shareholders and creditors would be misled or defrauded. [00:01:30] Speaker 03: And paying for shares with promissory notes dilutes the equity of the other shareholders. [00:01:35] Speaker 03: It also causes the company to forgo other sources of capital. [00:01:38] Speaker 03: In this case, Amherst and Seagroup, foreign-incorporated shell companies with concealed beneficial ownership, squeeze their way into Okertatnafta to form a boating alliance with Tatneft. [00:01:51] Speaker 03: And these shell companies [00:01:52] Speaker 03: paid for their shares with promises to pay 65.8 million and only 3 million were ever collected. [00:02:00] Speaker 03: After the illegality of the issue. [00:02:02] Speaker 02: The implications of this argument, would it mean that any time an award is thought to be in violation of foreign law, that it implicates the public policy exception? [00:02:17] Speaker 03: Your Honor, the illegality argument in this case [00:02:21] Speaker 03: implicates two provisions of the New York Convention. [00:02:24] Speaker 03: The first one has to do with the scope of the offer to arbitrate because the BAT between Russia and Ukraine specifically provides that disputes that can be arbitrated on the BAT have to arise out of legal investments. [00:02:39] Speaker 03: So the legality requirement is encompassed in the BAT, which has part of the agreement to arbitrate and which defined the scope of the offer to arbitrate. [00:02:48] Speaker 03: And as far as [00:02:50] Speaker 03: the public policy exception is concerned under article five two B. Not any illegality would implicate the public policy exception, but any illegality that is not trivial and that's raised as the type of concerns that I had just described will certainly come within the purview of the public policy exception. [00:03:15] Speaker 03: In the district court proceeding, it was uncontested [00:03:19] Speaker 03: that disputes relating to illegal investments are outside the scope of Ukraine's offer to arbitrate in the meaning of Article 5.3 of the New York Convention. [00:03:27] Speaker 03: And it was also undisputed that the United States has a public policy against illegality in the meaning of Article 5.2b of the New York Convention. [00:03:36] Speaker 03: Tatnev did not even attempt to defend the legality of the share purchase, because in promissory notes in these proceedings, yet the district court did not evaluate Ukraine's concern [00:03:48] Speaker 03: with the illegality of the share purchase using promissory notes and did not draw article five consequences from it. [00:03:55] Speaker 03: The district court's order should be reversed and enforcement should be denied for illegality under article five, turning out to form non-convenience. [00:04:07] Speaker 03: This case has no connection to the United States other than being a contracting party to the New York convention. [00:04:13] Speaker 03: The locus of the dispute is in Ukraine. [00:04:15] Speaker 03: The witnesses, experts and assets are in Ukraine. [00:04:19] Speaker 03: The dispute involves complex issues of Ukrainian law and also Russian and Soviet law. [00:04:24] Speaker 03: Illegality of the share purchase is central to this dispute. [00:04:28] Speaker 03: TATNEF has not identified any assets of Ukrainian law. [00:04:31] Speaker 02: We have some decisions that seem to stand for the proposition that foreign non-convenience is not a basis on which there's relief in the context of a proceeding to enforce an arbitral award. [00:04:44] Speaker 03: Your honor. [00:04:45] Speaker 03: Let us look at the last footnote of the forum non-convenience section of TMR. [00:04:53] Speaker 03: This is the decision to which you refer. [00:04:55] Speaker 02: TMR and others that echo it. [00:04:58] Speaker 03: And the last footnote of the TMR decision expressly curves out the question as to whether the forum non-convenience arguments are available or unavailable in [00:05:11] Speaker 03: New York Convention confirmations proceedings from its determination. [00:05:15] Speaker 03: And I read, accordingly, we do not consider TMR's alternative contention that, contrary to the Second Circuit's decision in monogas v neftogas of Ukraine, the doctrine has no place in an action to enforce an arbitrary law. [00:05:32] Speaker 03: So this particular question was specifically carved out from this court's determination [00:05:37] Speaker 03: and the full date of money gas of the Second Circuit was undisturbed. [00:05:43] Speaker 03: And in that particular case, the Second Circuit specifically held that foreign money is available as an argument in New York Convention proceedings. [00:05:53] Speaker 03: And why? [00:05:54] Speaker 03: Because article five of the New York Convention sets forth the substantive defenses to confirmation. [00:06:00] Speaker 02: On the subject of footnotes, I thought that [00:06:05] Speaker 02: there was a footnote in our STELX decision that says, I think relying on TMR, that says that prom non-convenience is unavailable in the arbitral context. [00:06:16] Speaker 03: Your honor, that footnote refers and relies to TMR. [00:06:21] Speaker 03: And we submit that that footnote is dictum. [00:06:25] Speaker 03: Because by the time the court got to that footnote, it already [00:06:30] Speaker 03: affirmed the confirmation of the award on two other grounds. [00:06:35] Speaker 03: The first one was the subject marriage jurisdiction under the Foreign Ceremonies Act. [00:06:40] Speaker 03: And the second one had to do with the pendency of some foreign proceedings. [00:06:45] Speaker 03: So after having affirmed the confirmation on those two grounds in the body, it got to this footnote. [00:06:52] Speaker 03: So we submit this as dictum. [00:06:54] Speaker 03: And [00:06:56] Speaker 03: So the only determination I think perhaps before clarification is- Your audio's breaking up. [00:07:03] Speaker 02: Your audio's breaking up. [00:07:04] Speaker 02: When you turn away, your audio's a little bit off. [00:07:06] Speaker 02: Sorry. [00:07:10] Speaker 03: Your honor. [00:07:11] Speaker 03: And I also would like to draw attention to Article 3 of the New York Convention. [00:07:16] Speaker 03: And this is the provision specifically that the Second Circuit interpreted. [00:07:20] Speaker 03: So while holding that the defenses in Article 5 [00:07:25] Speaker 03: substantive matters, the forum non-convenience argument is procedural in nature and Article 3 of the New York Convention specifically provides that enforcement has to be conducted and done in accordance with the procedures of the forum. [00:07:42] Speaker 03: So according to Article 3 of the New York Convention, the forum non-convenience argument remains available in your convention confirmation proceedings. [00:07:54] Speaker 03: So, Your Honour, this case has no connection to the United States other than the United States being a contracting party to the New York Convention. [00:08:04] Speaker 03: So why are we here today? [00:08:07] Speaker 03: Because of foreign shopping. [00:08:09] Speaker 03: We submit that the reason why this Russian company with close ties to the Republic of Tatarstan, a unit of the Russian Federation, dropped a jurisdictional hook in this district is to seek worldwide discovery into the assets of not only Ukraine, [00:08:23] Speaker 03: but also numerous Ukrainian entities of strategic importance to the nation's welfare. [00:08:27] Speaker 03: This Russian company is seeking to mobilize far-reaching jurisdictional powers of American courts at times of geopolitical hostilities. [00:08:35] Speaker 03: This case should be dismissed before an inconvenience, and I will discuss very, very briefly. [00:08:41] Speaker 03: First, the district court erred in misconstruing the court's precedent, TMR, to provide for a categorical rule that a foreign forum is always unavailable and inadequate in US proceedings to enforce an arbitral order on the New York Commission. [00:08:53] Speaker 03: And second, such categorical reading of TMR would contravene supreme court precedent, particularly Piper and Sienachem. [00:08:59] Speaker 03: With regard to the first point, TMR does not set such a categorical rule. [00:09:04] Speaker 03: It cannot be that a foreign forum is always inadequate and always unavailable in an action to confirm an arbitral award, just because any such action can be characterized as an action to attach property in the United States. [00:09:16] Speaker 03: Even work is here. [00:09:17] Speaker 03: The judgment crater is loaded, but any property of Ukraine in the district [00:09:23] Speaker 03: and has openly admitted that it is unaware of any such property. [00:09:26] Speaker 03: And as we just discussed, such categorical reading of TMR would be contrary to the last footnote of the forum non-convenience section of that decision. [00:09:36] Speaker 03: Turning now to the second point, such categorical reading of TMR would contravene Piper and Sinochem. [00:09:43] Speaker 03: The rule under Piper has always been and remains that an alternative forum can only be inadequate if the remedy that it provides is so clearly [00:09:52] Speaker 03: inadequate and unsatisfactory, that it is no remedy at all. [00:09:56] Speaker 03: And the examples were that the defendant is not amenable to service of process or foreign law does not permit litigation of the subject matter of the dispute. [00:10:03] Speaker 03: And this is a very low standard of adequacy, easily satisfied here. [00:10:08] Speaker 03: And second, I would like to turn to SINACAM, which was decided two years after TMR. [00:10:15] Speaker 03: It confirmed a continued vitality of the foreign inconvenience doctrine because SINACAM was also an attachment case. [00:10:22] Speaker 03: And even though the attachment remedy was sought in that case, that did not preclude dismissal and for a non-communist crowd. [00:10:29] Speaker 02: Had attachment been- I think we have your Sonicam argument from the briefing. [00:10:34] Speaker 02: And I just want to make sure that my colleagues don't have additional questions for you before we give Mr. McDonald a chance to respond. [00:10:42] Speaker 01: know. [00:10:43] Speaker 02: Oh, okay. [00:10:44] Speaker 02: Thank you, Miss Kostitska. [00:10:45] Speaker 02: We'll give you a little time for rebuttal. [00:10:46] Speaker 02: Mr. McDonald, we'll hear from you now. [00:10:48] Speaker 00: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:10:49] Speaker 00: May it please the court. [00:10:51] Speaker 00: I'm Mark McDonald for the FLE Tatnips. [00:10:55] Speaker 00: This case, there's a limited issue in front of the district court, which is whether to recognize in the United States [00:11:03] Speaker 00: the final award, which was rendered in France and upheld by the courts in France. [00:11:09] Speaker 00: And as this court and others have recognized, the award debtor, Ukraine, in a case like this one bears a very heavy burden to overcome the emphatic federal policy in favor of international arbitration awards and upholding our treaty obligations under the convention. [00:11:28] Speaker 00: The district court was absolutely correct to reject all of Ukraine's objections to enforcement of this award, even though they've been somewhat of a moving target in the four plus years of this case. [00:11:41] Speaker 00: And all four of the issues, including the two that council discussed just now that are raised on this appeal are meritless. [00:11:49] Speaker 00: And the district court's final judgment affirming the award should be affirmed by this court. [00:11:56] Speaker 00: So I'll start with the illegality point, which was raised. [00:12:01] Speaker 00: This is the issue of the way in which Amherst and Seagroup, which were not the claimants in the arbitration, but the way that those companies purchased their shares in the underlying company in the 1990s. [00:12:17] Speaker 00: And those shares were then purchased subsequently by TATNAF, the claimant in the arbitration. [00:12:23] Speaker 00: Before the court can even get to the merits of that issue, Ukraine actually waved this argument, and not just once, but twice. [00:12:32] Speaker 00: The first time was in the arbitration itself. [00:12:37] Speaker 00: where Ukraine specifically requested that the Arbitral Tribunal address its own jurisdiction. [00:12:46] Speaker 00: And it raised four separate jurisdictional arguments, including a very similar argument that TATNEF's own purchase of the shares in the company were outside of the bilateral investment treaty of the bit. [00:13:01] Speaker 00: Very similar argument to the argument that's being raised now with respect to the emirates and C group shares. [00:13:06] Speaker 00: but it never raised the argument that it's making to this court today as an argument. [00:13:12] Speaker 02: As far as that argument comes through the lens of the public policy issue, I'm not sure that it's waivable because that's not seeking to vindicate the interests of a particular party, that's seeking to vindicate the interests of the United States. [00:13:25] Speaker 00: I agree with that, Your Honor. [00:13:26] Speaker 00: So the structure of Article 5 of the New York Convention is that Article 5.1 are the defenses that have to be raised by the party resisting enforcement. [00:13:37] Speaker 00: And then Article 5.2, including the public policy exception, are sort of available to the recognizing court, if you will, and the public policy argument. [00:13:51] Speaker 00: comes under the ladder of those two. [00:13:54] Speaker 00: But you're only talking about 501c, is that your... That's where I was starting, but I'm happy to talk about Article 5. [00:14:00] Speaker 02: I didn't realize, which this the same underlying factual... It is. [00:14:06] Speaker 02: The gravamen surfaces both under 501c and under public policy, and I just didn't know. [00:14:10] Speaker 02: branch you were talking about. [00:14:12] Speaker 00: Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point, Your Honor. [00:14:14] Speaker 00: So just, okay, let's finish on 5.1c. [00:14:18] Speaker 00: The waiver was clear in the tribunal, in the arbitration itself. [00:14:23] Speaker 00: It again waived the argument in the district court, because in July of 2017, when Titan F had filed the petition in the district court, [00:14:35] Speaker 00: the district court ordered Ukraine to respond to that petition with its New York Convention defenses, and it did so, raising the arbitrator bias point, which is raised again on this appeal but wasn't discussed just now, and a separate argument as to this allegation that TATNAF had acquired the emirates and secret shares [00:14:58] Speaker 00: from Amherst and Seagroup to manufacture jurisdiction in the arbitration. [00:15:02] Speaker 00: That issue is separate from the illegality of Amherst and Seagroup's own purchase of the shares. [00:15:08] Speaker 00: But anyway, that issue has been abandoned on this appeal. [00:15:11] Speaker 00: It's not been raised. [00:15:14] Speaker 00: Even if the issue had not been waived under Article 5.1c, it would be [00:15:20] Speaker 00: It would not succeed under this court's precedent, including Chevron and more recently the Stylix decision that's been discussed today. [00:15:27] Speaker 00: Here, just as in both of those cases, the bilateral investment treaty, incorporated by reference the 1976 [00:15:37] Speaker 00: ancestral arbitration rules, which this court has found constitutes clear and unmistakable evidence that the parties delegated arbitrability questions to the arbitrators. [00:15:49] Speaker 00: Now, Ukraine made an argument in their brief that, well, that doesn't matter because the arbitrators here didn't make a finding on the illegality points, and so there's nothing to defer to. [00:16:00] Speaker 00: But with respect, that's because Ukraine, again, did not make this argument in the arbitration and never raised this issue as a jurisdictional defense in the arbitration. [00:16:11] Speaker 00: And I would point the court to language in the Silex decision from earlier this year that when the parties delegate arbitrability issues to the arbitrators, it's not merely a question of deference. [00:16:27] Speaker 00: It's just that the court has actually no power to decide the arbitrability issues. [00:16:32] Speaker 00: That was a question if it was going to be a question for the arbitrators alone. [00:16:37] Speaker 00: So turning your honor to five to be the public policy aspect of this argument. [00:16:44] Speaker 00: the, as this court had said time and again, public policy is a very narrow exception to a New York convention case seeking recognition of an arbitral award. [00:16:55] Speaker 00: And it simply does not encompass however Ukraine wants to phrase it, you know, illegality under Ukrainian corporate law, the sort of, you know, obviously there's no public policy of the United States with respect to that. [00:17:08] Speaker 00: But okay, let's say does the United States have a public policy with respect to [00:17:12] Speaker 00: the purchase of shares with promissory notes? [00:17:16] Speaker 00: Well, you know, maybe there was some sort of policy in the District of Columbia in the 1980s when the DC code prohibited that type of purchase. [00:17:26] Speaker 00: Whatever that policy reason was has since been abandoned because the code has since been revised and now you can purchase shares in a company with promissory notes. [00:17:36] Speaker 00: But regardless, that's not the type of public policy that's so well defined and dominant that it can overcome [00:17:42] Speaker 00: the recognition of a foreign arbitration award that's subject to the New York Convention. [00:17:50] Speaker 00: The only types of cases where that exception has been successfully invoked involve fraud or other very unique circumstances and nothing like that has been alleged here. [00:18:00] Speaker 00: And I would also note that the public policy exception is not [00:18:04] Speaker 00: an occasion for the district court or this court to substitute its fact-finding for the arbitration tribunal's fact-finding. [00:18:13] Speaker 00: That was the holding of the Supreme Court of the United States in the United Paperworkers case. [00:18:22] Speaker 00: So unless any of your honors has any questions on the illegality point, I'll turn to forum non-convenience, although [00:18:33] Speaker 01: What's your response on the 5-1-D tribunal composition? [00:18:40] Speaker 00: Sure, Your Honor. [00:18:41] Speaker 01: What standard do you think the district court applied? [00:18:45] Speaker 01: Does your court apply evident partiality, justifiable doubts, or something else? [00:18:51] Speaker 00: I think if you look at the district court's opinion that- I did. [00:18:54] Speaker 00: Actually use all three standards that have been suggested in this case and found that- Do you think the district court said under [00:19:03] Speaker 01: justifiable doubts. [00:19:05] Speaker 01: I'm reaching the same conclusion. [00:19:08] Speaker 01: I mean, if you can point me to language, that's what I was trying to figure out because it really is very unclear what standard the district court is applying. [00:19:17] Speaker 01: Now, if it's true that the district court said [00:19:20] Speaker 01: reaching the same result with respect to all three, then of course I'd look at it that way, but I couldn't get myself there. [00:19:30] Speaker 00: I think you're right, Your Honor, that the justifiable doubt standard comes from the Uncetral rule. [00:19:36] Speaker 00: And I think the district court, her decision was that that cannot be the standard. [00:19:43] Speaker 01: Do you agree with that? [00:19:44] Speaker 00: I agree with it in the following sense. [00:19:46] Speaker 00: So in this court in the Belize bank case found, well, it said, right, that in an arbitrator bias case, [00:19:56] Speaker 00: as opposed to a question, a case presenting a question as to how the arbitrators were selected. [00:20:02] Speaker 00: Like, you know, maybe there would be an issue under 5.1d if the police dealt with the public policy defense. [00:20:09] Speaker 00: I agree. [00:20:10] Speaker 00: But what the court said was in a case like this, where the allegation is that the arbitrators were biased, the only potential grounds under Article five was not 5.1d, but 5.2b, the public policy exception. [00:20:23] Speaker 00: And the reason that is because this is not a question about how the tribunal was composed. [00:20:29] Speaker 00: There were rules. [00:20:31] Speaker 01: So wait, so then the district court, I think you're trying to dance away from it. [00:20:37] Speaker 01: I'd really like an answer. [00:20:39] Speaker 01: The district court spent a number of paragraphs, as I remember, on this question and was talking about these different standards. [00:20:47] Speaker 01: I thought the correct answer would be to justify all the doubts is the correct standard. [00:20:53] Speaker 01: And I'm wondering if you think the district court applied that standard. [00:20:57] Speaker 01: And your first dodge was to say, well, she applied everything. [00:21:01] Speaker 01: I'm not sure that's right. [00:21:02] Speaker 01: And if she didn't apply, justifiable doubts. [00:21:06] Speaker 01: Can we reach that decision on our own, or do we have to remand for determination on that? [00:21:10] Speaker 00: I think, Your Honor, there's no dispute of what the facts are. [00:21:14] Speaker 00: This Court can decide it on its own if it thinks that that's the right standard. [00:21:18] Speaker 00: If I can just explain for a minute why I don't think that's the right standard. [00:21:25] Speaker 00: The combination of this Court's decision in Belize Bank and this Court's decision in the Republic of Argentina versus AWG I think explain this. [00:21:33] Speaker 00: So in AWG, that case was a domestic arbitration case under chapter one of the FAA. [00:21:40] Speaker 00: So the evident partiality standards apply. [00:21:44] Speaker 00: Now, interestingly, that case also involved an arbitration governed by the uncentral rules. [00:21:49] Speaker 00: But in that case, this court said, even in a chapter one case, it's not the justifiable doubt standard under the uncentral rules that applies. [00:21:57] Speaker 00: It's the evident partiality standard under the FAA. [00:22:01] Speaker 00: Because you don't just get to come into court after you lose an arbitration and say any sort of footfall under the underlying arbitration rules. [00:22:10] Speaker 00: It gives me an excuse to undo that. [00:22:12] Speaker 01: Let's see how evident partiality can apply in a case with respect to an international issue. [00:22:17] Speaker 00: I agree and it certainly does not and that was the point in the police bank case which is to say that in a chapter two case like this one, the evident partiality standard does not apply and in fact the standard is tougher because this is not a primary jurisdiction case. [00:22:34] Speaker 00: where the court has more latitude to undo an arbitration award, in fact, has less. [00:22:40] Speaker 00: And so if Ukraine's argument were accepted here, it would be backwards, right? [00:22:45] Speaker 00: You would be in a chapter two international arbitration award case, you would actually have more latitude to undo an arbitration for an allegation like this than you would in a chapter one case. [00:22:58] Speaker 00: And that just can't be right. [00:23:01] Speaker ?: OK. [00:23:02] Speaker 02: All right. [00:23:02] Speaker 02: Let me make sure my colleagues don't have additional questions for you, Mr. Donald. [00:23:06] Speaker 02: No. [00:23:07] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:23:08] Speaker 02: Thank you, Mr. McDonald. [00:23:09] Speaker 02: Ms. [00:23:10] Speaker 02: Kostitska will give you two minutes for your rebuttal, please. [00:23:13] Speaker 03: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:23:14] Speaker 03: With regards to the waiver of the clause, Ukraine did not waive its illegality argument by not raising it in the arbitration because it did, in fact, argue the illegality point during both the admissibility and jurisdictional phases of the arbitration. [00:23:31] Speaker 03: So even though the illegality argument was raised, it was not squarely addressed in the award and jurisdictional admissibility. [00:23:39] Speaker 03: And then most certainly, Ukraine raised illegality of the share purchase as a merit defense. [00:23:46] Speaker 03: And the tribunal did not address this issue and merely stated that a contrary view that a share purchase with promissory notes being legal was tenable. [00:23:57] Speaker 03: So stating that something is tenable is not a determination. [00:24:00] Speaker 03: So this question was never resolved by the tribunal, even though this question was put before it. [00:24:07] Speaker 03: And we also don't accept that we waived the illegality argument before the district court. [00:24:14] Speaker 03: Because in the argument section of the opposition, not just in the factual background section, in the argument section, we stated, in Ukraine's submission, enforcement of the merits award would land [00:24:25] Speaker 03: the court's power to run doers, Amherst and Seigroup, which unlawfully acquired their shares and over did not bring some promissory notes in violation of Ukraine law. [00:24:34] Speaker 03: So this point was argued before the district court and the district court could have and should have drawn article five consequences from this argument, most certainly under the public policy exception. [00:24:48] Speaker 03: But if more clarity was necessary to bring this argument under the scope exception, [00:24:55] Speaker 03: Then we requested supplemental briefing when additional Ukrainian law evidence became available in the UK proceeding. [00:25:03] Speaker 03: So had a fuller argumentation been helpful, we offered to provide it. [00:25:08] Speaker 03: And in this particular graph. [00:25:14] Speaker 03: And opposing council raised the point with regard to your honor, I see that my time has expired. [00:25:20] Speaker 03: May I finish this one point? [00:25:22] Speaker 02: Yeah, you can finish this one point quickly. [00:25:24] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:25:25] Speaker 03: Yes, so the last point is that we are not proposed by Chevron to raise this point because Chevron does not allow to re-argue admissibility determinate, arbitrability determinations that were actually decided by the tribunal. [00:25:43] Speaker 03: And there is no authority that precludes you from looking into points [00:25:47] Speaker 03: that have not actually been decided by the tribunal. [00:25:51] Speaker 03: And there was no factual finding by the tribunal at this particular point, and there is nothing to refer to. [00:25:57] Speaker 02: Okay. [00:25:58] Speaker 02: Thank you, counsel. [00:26:00] Speaker 02: Thank you to both counsel. [00:26:01] Speaker 02: We'll take this case under submission.