[00:00:00] Speaker 00: Case number 20-1235, Steven C. Finberg, Petitioner versus United State Department of Agriculture and United States of America. [00:00:10] Speaker 00: Mr. Diaz for the petitioner, Mr. Spignol for the respondents. [00:00:15] Speaker 05: Good morning, Council. [00:00:17] Speaker 05: Good morning, Your Honors. [00:00:18] Speaker 05: Lou Diaz appearing on behalf of the petitioner, Steven C. Finberg. [00:00:22] Speaker 05: May it please the court. [00:00:24] Speaker 05: Petitioner requests the court to reverse USDA's decision finding Mr. Finberg responsibly connected to Adams Produce because petitioner was not actively involved in the activities resulting in the violation and because USDA has determined that Adams Produce was the alter ego of Scott Grinstead, the CEO and owner of Adams Produce at the time of the violations. [00:00:51] Speaker 05: PACA's Responsibly Connected provision affords owners, officers, and directors of a PACA violator to avoid the harsh employment restrictions imposed by the statute if they can satisfy a two-pronged test. [00:01:07] Speaker 05: The first prong is they must show that they were not actively involved in the activities resulting in the specific violation. [00:01:16] Speaker 05: The second prong requires them to either show that they were a nominal officer and director or they were not the owner of the pack of violator and the pack of violator was the alter ego of somebody else. [00:01:30] Speaker 05: In this case, the violation in question was the failure to pay $1.9 million to produce suppliers of atoms. [00:01:40] Speaker 06: Which happened because the company spiraled downward and went into bankruptcy and couldn't pay suppliers, right? [00:01:50] Speaker 06: Yes, your honor, actually. [00:01:52] Speaker 06: And that happened because the bank [00:01:55] Speaker 06: the letter of credit because there were reports of mismanagement and an investigation of fraud on the Department of Defense, correct? [00:02:07] Speaker 05: No, there is no evidence that why the bank swept the funds. [00:02:12] Speaker 05: The ALJ and the judicial officer concluded that there were four main factors that caused the downfall of Adams. [00:02:19] Speaker 05: The first one being Mr. Grinstead's falsification of financial records to get a capital infusion from CIC in the amount of $7.5 million. [00:02:29] Speaker 05: The second was Mr. Grinstead's embezzlement, theft, and fraud to enrich himself personally in the amount of $400,000. [00:02:37] Speaker 05: The third was the negligence of the auditing company to uncover Mr. Grinstead's fraud of the financial records. [00:02:44] Speaker 05: And then the fourth was the sweeping [00:02:46] Speaker 05: of the bank account by PNC Bank of monies that were specifically earmarked to pay the packet trust creditors. [00:02:54] Speaker 05: There's no evidence that Mr. Finberg was involved in any of those four activities. [00:02:59] Speaker 06: There's no, but there's testimony that one of the reasons people started to lose faith in this company was a DOJ investigation of a DOD fraud. [00:03:16] Speaker 05: There is no evidence, Your Honor, that indicates that the DOJ fraud or the failure to disclose the DOD fraud was the result of the downfall of atoms. [00:03:29] Speaker 05: There is absolutely no evidence. [00:03:31] Speaker 05: In fact, the DOD fraud was the subject of a whistleblower complaint approximately one year before Mr. Finberg became aware of the DOD fraud. [00:03:40] Speaker 05: Mr. Finberg was not charged with being complicit with the DOD fraud. [00:03:46] Speaker 05: He was only charged with misprison of felony for failure to report the DOD fraud to the federal authorities. [00:03:52] Speaker 05: When he learned of the fraud, he went to his superior, Mr. Grinstead, and told him about what was going on. [00:03:59] Speaker 05: His failure was not to report it to the federal authorities. [00:04:03] Speaker 05: Here we have a violation which is failure to pay produce suppliers. [00:04:08] Speaker 05: In this case, there is no nexus. [00:04:11] Speaker 05: The department has not provided any substantial evidence to show that there was a nexus for any direct causal link between the failure to report the DOD fraud and the failure to pay produce suppliers. [00:04:26] Speaker 05: The judicial officer basically just said, you know, the the the misprison of felony was basically just the general downfall of Adams or because Mr. Finberg didn't report it, it allowed the DOD. [00:04:40] Speaker 06: I take your point that there are other causes here. [00:04:46] Speaker 06: There were other frauds in which [00:04:50] Speaker 06: Binberg was not involved and maybe they're sufficiently distinct that you think of them as different activities. [00:05:00] Speaker 06: But there was testimony that the DOD fraud was one significant piece of the company's downfall. [00:05:10] Speaker 05: Well, there's testimony that there was negative publicity, but that was offset by other testimony that said that Adams was functioning and functioning well before the sweep of the account. [00:05:22] Speaker 06: If the evidence is conflicting, then there's substantial evidence to support the determination. [00:05:30] Speaker 05: There is absolutely no substantial evidence to show that the failure to report the fraud caused the failure to pay the produce suppliers. [00:05:40] Speaker 05: In this case, you have the department could have. [00:05:44] Speaker 06: In terms of his involvement, you have the what he pleaded guilty to, which is undisputed. [00:05:53] Speaker 06: Also in the record is the indictment, which says that he was actively involved in concocting the fraud. [00:06:04] Speaker 06: from the outset. [00:06:05] Speaker 06: Can we consider that? [00:06:08] Speaker 06: And if we can consider that, he's not just a passive observer, he is actively involved in a fraud that results in the downfall of the company. [00:06:23] Speaker 05: Your Honor, there was testimony by Mr. Finberg in which he specifically pled guilty to misprision of felony. [00:06:31] Speaker 05: He did not plead guilty to being complicit in the felony that was going on. [00:06:38] Speaker 05: All he pled guilty to was failure to report the actual violation. [00:06:45] Speaker 06: But the right, but the indictment is evidence in this administrative record. [00:06:50] Speaker 06: It charges him with more than that, and it's his burden in this proceeding. [00:06:56] Speaker 06: It's his burden to disprove his involvement. [00:07:00] Speaker 05: But the facts of the indictment were never proved in the court of law. [00:07:02] Speaker 05: It's merely just an indictment. [00:07:04] Speaker 05: It can't be used against Mr. Finberg because there was no trial to prove that the facts of the indictment were true. [00:07:10] Speaker 05: He merely pled guilty to failing to report the fraud to the Department of Justice. [00:07:20] Speaker 05: Again, you have to look at all the facts here in this circumstance. [00:07:24] Speaker 05: The USDA, in the companion CIC director's case, found Mr. Grinstead was the alter ego of Adams. [00:07:32] Speaker 05: He was the bad actor. [00:07:34] Speaker 05: But USDA says, Mr. Finberg, I'm sorry, you're not entitled to use that finding or the alter ego defense because you, unlike the CIC directors, didn't put personal money into the business. [00:07:48] Speaker 05: You didn't help root out the wrongdoing and you're not an innocent party. [00:07:53] Speaker 05: However, the standard doesn't require an examination of the petitioner's conduct. [00:07:58] Speaker 05: It doesn't require him to put money into the corporation to assert the alter ego defense. [00:08:06] Speaker 05: In this case, Grinstead was the alter ego of Adams. [00:08:10] Speaker 05: He was found to be the alter ego of Adams. [00:08:13] Speaker 05: And therefore, Mr. Finberg has satisfied both of these problems. [00:08:18] Speaker 05: I will reserve the rest of my time for rebuttal. [00:08:22] Speaker 03: All right. [00:08:22] Speaker 03: Thank you, Council. [00:08:25] Speaker 03: Council for respondent. [00:08:28] Speaker 04: As may it please the court, my name is Charles Spicknell. [00:08:30] Speaker 04: I'm here on behalf of the U.S. [00:08:32] Speaker 04: Department of Agriculture in the United States. [00:08:35] Speaker 04: I'll start with my opponent's arguments about active involvement. [00:08:40] Speaker 04: He says there's no evidence linking the criminal activities that petitioner Finberg participated in, which specifically was a fraud against the United States through the downfall of Adams and the resulting prompt payment violations of the PACA. [00:08:57] Speaker 04: That's wrong. [00:08:58] Speaker 04: There is. [00:08:58] Speaker 04: I mean, first of all, the government did not start investigating Adams because of any of these other activities, because Grinstead was putting personal expenses on his credit card [00:09:10] Speaker 04: because he made the outside investment firm pay too much rather get get to the point on that the question of causation whether he is responsible for the hour was a part of the causation of the acts for which the proceeding is held sorry your honor yes the uh the two directors who were on the special committee that was formed to respond to the fraud were the first to testify at the administrative hearing they said the fraud [00:09:37] Speaker 04: against the government and the government's investigation was significant for four reasons. [00:09:41] Speaker 04: First, the company hired Fulbright and Jaworski to represent them. [00:09:47] Speaker 04: They incurred millions of dollars in legal expenses. [00:09:49] Speaker 04: Second, Adams lost business, not only the government. [00:09:52] Speaker 06: Oh, I'm sorry. [00:09:53] Speaker 06: Just on that point, I thought the outside directors paid that fee, not Adams. [00:10:01] Speaker 04: Well, they were very specific. [00:10:02] Speaker 04: They did say that at the hearing, but they cleared that up. [00:10:05] Speaker 04: Mr. Johnson did he was one of the technically those expenses by the company, and they invested in Adams, an additional $2 million to help pay those costs. [00:10:18] Speaker 04: and the legal fees and to see that some of the PACA. [00:10:23] Speaker 01: So how does that then become a cause of this non-payment for which this proceeding is brought? [00:10:29] Speaker 04: Well I mean the company incurred the funds the fact that the you know outside parties wanted to save the company and put funds into the company. [00:10:38] Speaker 01: How did the activities of Mr. Feinberg cause the non-payment? [00:10:45] Speaker 04: Well, with regard to the investment that we're talking about now, at the end of the day, the company went bankrupt. [00:10:51] Speaker 04: The money they put in wasn't enough to satisfy the company's obligations. [00:10:56] Speaker 04: It went bankrupt and it left 1.9 million in produce debts unpaid, which is a violation of the packet. [00:11:03] Speaker 06: The problem is you have a lot of bad things swirling around here. [00:11:11] Speaker 06: You have at least three different [00:11:14] Speaker 06: fraudulent schemes, you have a somewhat attenuated theory of causation because the pocket violation has nothing to do with the fraud on DOD, right? [00:11:27] Speaker 06: So he's involved in defrauding DOD, which in the short term is gonna make the company more able to pay its other debts because they're having more money come in than they otherwise should. [00:11:42] Speaker 06: and then things go bad and we're trying to figure out, is it one of Grinstead's frauds? [00:11:50] Speaker 06: Is it another? [00:11:51] Speaker 06: What's going on here? [00:11:53] Speaker 06: You have a pretty short timeframe between when we know DOJ to be investigating and when the company fails and just nothing in the administrative orders [00:12:10] Speaker 06: analyzing the causation question. [00:12:14] Speaker 06: It's just pure Ipsedixit. [00:12:17] Speaker 04: Well, I mean, I think the problem is, you know, I'm not sure that this was front and center when the JO wrote her opinion. [00:12:24] Speaker 04: And I think there is substantial evidence. [00:12:27] Speaker 04: I don't think that it's, you know, I think there is ample evidence now that the issue has been raised. [00:12:32] Speaker 04: I don't think you can say the judicial officer missed something in the record that makes her opinion arbitrary and capricious. [00:12:38] Speaker 04: And that's because [00:12:39] Speaker 04: Not only did they incur legal expenses, they lost business, but they also lost outside investment, so they couldn't get enough money to save, and they also lost the bank financing. [00:12:49] Speaker 01: Do you think it's enough to meet the causation requirement of this proceeding that he closed his eyes to something else that cost the company money? [00:12:59] Speaker 01: Isn't that an awfully broad interpretation, counsel? [00:13:03] Speaker 04: I don't think so. [00:13:04] Speaker 04: It's clearly one of the activities that brought down the company that left the produce payers unpaid. [00:13:09] Speaker 04: As Judge Katz says, there was three of them. [00:13:13] Speaker 04: There were personal expenses, there was inflating the profits of the company, and there was this. [00:13:20] Speaker 01: Anything that shows they would have paid this stuff for which they had a non-payment if it hadn't meant for what he did? [00:13:28] Speaker 04: I'm sorry, I missed your question. [00:13:32] Speaker 01: It's a but far question. [00:13:33] Speaker 01: Is there anything in the record that shows the company would have paid these bills for which they made a non-payment had he not done what he did in covering up the other fraud? [00:13:45] Speaker 04: Well, I think there is. [00:13:46] Speaker 04: The directors very clearly testified that at some point they discovered what the government was investigating and they went to the bank, PNC Bank, their lender, and they said, look, [00:13:59] Speaker 04: uh here here's what we know uh employees and officers within the company have been defrauding the government and we also had this internal fraud where Greenstead was inflating the receivables so they told the bank about both and that was the pivotal event because the bank for this proceeding though is not about either one of those isn't it's about the non-payment right that's right but you know and i'm not hearing you answer my question as to what is it in the record it says they would have paid [00:14:26] Speaker 01: They would not have incurred this non-payment, but for something that Mr. Feinberg did. [00:14:33] Speaker 04: Well, I mean, I think it is linked because when they told the bank about the fraud, the bank withdrew the company's line of credit and the director said very clearly, that was it. [00:14:42] Speaker 04: We were dead in the water without new investment and without a line of credit, we couldn't operate. [00:14:47] Speaker 04: Therefore the company couldn't pay the pack of suppliers. [00:14:58] Speaker 03: So I guess the bottom line question in one sense is, was the judicial officer's opinion sufficiently specific on causation? [00:15:14] Speaker 04: Well, I don't think that's the issue. [00:15:16] Speaker 04: I think even if she wasn't. [00:15:19] Speaker 03: I think that the but for question implies that there were lots of things going on. [00:15:27] Speaker 03: that some findings that were made in the related proceeding seem contrary to the implication of the decision here. [00:15:42] Speaker 03: But as your brief points out, there's all this other evidence, but that's not what the joint judicial officers cited or even referred to. [00:15:56] Speaker 04: Right. [00:15:57] Speaker 04: But the judicial officer was affirming the ALJ, the Administrative Law Judge's decision, and she affirmed findings of facts and cited back to that decision. [00:16:08] Speaker 06: The ALJ decision was equally perfunctory on this point. [00:16:13] Speaker 03: Yeah. [00:16:15] Speaker 01: That didn't get you anywhere. [00:16:19] Speaker 04: All right. [00:16:20] Speaker 04: I mean, [00:16:23] Speaker 04: Again, I think there's substantial evidence to show that this was one of the causes, one of the activities. [00:16:30] Speaker 01: I have to ask you also about the alter ego question. [00:16:35] Speaker 01: How could the miscreant be an alter ego with the company in the proceedings with up to three other people, but not be an alter ego in this one? [00:16:47] Speaker 01: Either he was an alter ego or he wasn't an alter ego, or the company was an alter ego, wasn't an alter ego, wasn't it? [00:16:52] Speaker 01: How does it come out with two different answers to that question? [00:16:55] Speaker 04: Well, I think that, uh, you know, the standard for alter ego is Quinn and, uh, we also cite vegans. [00:17:03] Speaker 04: Okay. [00:17:03] Speaker 04: The standard is not only do you have to have a dominant owner, which Grinstead was found to be in the prior proceeding, but you also have to show an injustice and he can't show that injustice because he participated in that two different questions. [00:17:17] Speaker 04: It is two different questions, but that's clearly part of the test in Quinn, and Vegemix makes that very clear. [00:17:23] Speaker 04: This court's decision in Vegemix, which we cite in our brief, as does the A circuit's decision in Pupilo, although clearly that's not binding. [00:17:35] Speaker 04: So it's not just, you know, whether there's a potential [00:17:38] Speaker 04: you know, dominant owner, it's whether there's an injustice because, you know, we're essentially setting the corporate form aside to let someone who's really an officer go because, you know, we're going to ignore the fact they're an officer because it's an injustice that we're trying to prevent. [00:17:56] Speaker 04: And in this case, there is no injustice. [00:17:58] Speaker 04: He was a participant in the fraud against the government, which clearly had significant financial consequences for the company and ultimately for its suppliers. [00:18:09] Speaker 03: So since the statute has a presumption that places the burden of rebutting it to the Mr. Finberg here, does that reduce the obligation of the agency to demonstrate a but for [00:18:38] Speaker 03: Causation. [00:18:41] Speaker 04: Yes, I think that's true. [00:18:42] Speaker 04: I think in this case, for example, he said, you know, we don't know exactly why PNC bank went through the line of credit and swept the accounts. [00:18:51] Speaker 04: Well, it was after the company reported both frauds to them. [00:18:54] Speaker 04: He could have called someone. [00:18:56] Speaker 04: It was his burden. [00:18:57] Speaker 04: If you wanted to say, you know, PNC withdrew the line of credit. [00:19:00] Speaker 04: the decision had nothing to do with the fraud against the government, he could have called PNC Bank. [00:19:06] Speaker 04: He also had a right to cross-examine the directors at the hearing. [00:19:10] Speaker 04: So when they said all this, he could have, if he wanted to winnow out this point, that there was no connection between the fraud he participated in and ultimately the company's collapse, he had ample time to cross-examine the witnesses. [00:19:26] Speaker 04: I'm sorry, Your Honors, I see I'm out of time. [00:19:28] Speaker 04: I'd be happy to continue. [00:19:30] Speaker 03: So if the agency itself and its decision has not demonstrated a but for beyond the presumption in the statute, it doesn't matter? [00:19:46] Speaker 04: Right, it's his. [00:19:49] Speaker 04: I'm sorry to cut you off. [00:19:51] Speaker 03: I'm trying to understand. [00:19:52] Speaker 03: It's like the prosecutor issues an indictment [00:19:56] Speaker 03: But when put to its burden of proof, can't prove it. [00:20:02] Speaker 03: And you don't, the defendant can't be convicted. [00:20:09] Speaker 03: And I understand there's no burden there, but I'm just trying to understand how this statute works. [00:20:17] Speaker 03: Is it enough to say, look, Adams couldn't pay its suppliers? [00:20:21] Speaker 03: And anybody who's an official in the company [00:20:27] Speaker 03: who can't prove the two elements is necessarily implicated. [00:20:40] Speaker 04: Yes, that is our position. [00:20:41] Speaker 04: That is what the statute says. [00:20:44] Speaker 01: Even taking that position, hasn't the evidence demonstrated that there was not any direct connection between his actions and the particular default for which this proceeding is brought? [00:20:57] Speaker 01: That's the only way you can prove a negative is that you establish the weakness of the evidence for the positive. [00:21:06] Speaker 01: He's not going to have something ever that's going to be direct evidence of a negative. [00:21:10] Speaker 01: So why isn't this, in this case, a failure of that element? [00:21:16] Speaker 04: I don't think he has to have direct evidence of a negative. [00:21:18] Speaker 04: I think when the directors testified that they reported this fraud and the internal fraud to the bank and the bank pulled the line of credit, which put the company dead in the water, [00:21:27] Speaker 04: I think he needed to ask, you know, are you sure? [00:21:30] Speaker 01: You don't leave much meaning in this statute. [00:21:36] Speaker 01: If it's sufficient to show that he did something else that caused the company to lose business or lose status or lose credit. [00:21:46] Speaker 01: If that's sufficient, then you don't really need that element of this statute. [00:21:50] Speaker 01: You're not putting much content in this, are you, counsel? [00:21:53] Speaker 04: Well, I mean, I think in a lot of cases, this case is different. [00:21:58] Speaker 04: In many cases, you know, we have an officer who, for example, looted the company as it's going down. [00:22:03] Speaker 04: That was Norensburg, the case we cite for the standard of active involvement. [00:22:07] Speaker 04: Prior to the company's collapse, the family wrote checks to themselves and took money out that could have been used for the produce. [00:22:13] Speaker 04: Again, it's not, you know, and that's what we went after them for. [00:22:19] Speaker 04: Again, it wasn't that they [00:22:20] Speaker 04: themselves didn't pay the produce sellers. [00:22:24] Speaker 04: It was the reason the company didn't have the money to pay. [00:22:27] Speaker 04: And in this case, the reason the company couldn't fulfill its obligations under PACA was because of the various fraudulent schemes perpetrated by employees and officers within the company. [00:22:42] Speaker 01: All he pleaded guilty to was misprision. [00:22:46] Speaker 01: Is there anything that shows that had this fraud been disclosed at the moment he learned of it, there would have been any difference in this non-payment situation? [00:22:57] Speaker 04: Well, I think, you know, this fraud, I mean, fraud by its nature is a secret. [00:23:02] Speaker 04: I mean, we're speculating either way, because that's not what happened. [00:23:05] Speaker 04: But the really, you know, had he disclosed the secret to the government, it's reasonable to assume that it would have stopped. [00:23:12] Speaker 01: No, we're not talking about assumptions. [00:23:14] Speaker 01: We're talking about [00:23:16] Speaker 01: say it's reasonable to assume it would have stopped. [00:23:18] Speaker 01: If it had stopped at that point, is there still any evidence that this payment would have been made? [00:23:29] Speaker 04: I think potentially [00:23:33] Speaker 04: Certainly we wouldn't be here for this responsibly connected proceeding if he hadn't concealed the fraud, which is what he admitted to in his plea and agreed to continue it, which is what he the facts he admitted to in his plea agreement. [00:23:49] Speaker 06: Are we allowed to [00:23:53] Speaker 06: consider the allegation that he was, he didn't simply conceal the fraud, but he was actively involved in creating it. [00:24:08] Speaker 06: That's the allegation in the indictment. [00:24:10] Speaker 06: He didn't plead to it. [00:24:12] Speaker 06: And a friend on the other side has at least an intuitively appealing point that [00:24:20] Speaker 06: That's just an allegation that hasn't been tested. [00:24:25] Speaker 04: Right. [00:24:25] Speaker 04: And that is his argument. [00:24:27] Speaker 04: And we didn't make much of the indictment in the brief. [00:24:30] Speaker 04: He does testify. [00:24:31] Speaker 01: Is there evidence, though, outside the indictment, is there evidence of that in this record? [00:24:36] Speaker 04: No, there is not. [00:24:37] Speaker 04: Thank you. [00:24:41] Speaker 04: unless there are any further questions. [00:24:44] Speaker 03: I have another question. [00:24:47] Speaker 03: You suggested, I think, that causation was not the focus before the ALJ. [00:24:57] Speaker 03: And now I think you said that the issue has been raised. [00:25:02] Speaker 03: Are you suggesting that the causation issue was not raised until [00:25:11] Speaker 03: the appeal to this court? [00:25:14] Speaker 04: Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. [00:25:16] Speaker 04: I don't think it was squarely raised to the ALJ. [00:25:19] Speaker 04: And I think, yeah, I'm not sure it's really raised. [00:25:22] Speaker 02: Let me say squarely raised. [00:25:24] Speaker 02: If you strike that adverb, I am ready. [00:25:31] Speaker 04: I'm sorry, Your Honor. [00:25:33] Speaker 04: Yes, I reviewed the briefs below and I it's my opinion that it was not raised. [00:25:38] Speaker 04: And that's why the opinion that she wrote [00:25:40] Speaker 04: reads the way it does. [00:25:43] Speaker 04: And I would say, you know, I guess, you know, we didn't raise that issue and I didn't chase it down because it would be arbitrary and capricious if the judicial officer missed, you know, a chunk of evidence in the record. [00:25:57] Speaker 04: But he has no evidence that the fraud he participated in was not one of the factors that resulted in the bankruptcy of the company and the tires to pay. [00:26:08] Speaker 03: Well, I thought that was an implicit causation argument. [00:26:12] Speaker 03: Maybe I'm wrong. [00:26:16] Speaker 03: You have proved the connection of my action to the specific charge brought against the company. [00:26:29] Speaker 04: Yes, the judicial officer has defined what activities resulted in the violations of the PACA. [00:26:36] Speaker 04: And in this case, [00:26:38] Speaker 04: The administrative law judge found there were three, the misuse of company funds, the fraud against the government and the fraud against the company itself. [00:26:46] Speaker 04: Of course, he participated in only one of those. [00:26:48] Speaker 04: So it was the fraud against the government was one of the activities that resulted in the violations of the PACA. [00:26:56] Speaker 06: On the preservation question before the agency, the fraud, the causation question was raised [00:27:07] Speaker 06: in this court in the blue brief. [00:27:10] Speaker 06: And unless I missed it, you didn't argue forfeiture in your red brief. [00:27:18] Speaker 06: And so forfeiture arguments are themselves subject to forfeiture. [00:27:23] Speaker 06: So haven't you forfeited that objection? [00:27:27] Speaker 04: Yes, Judge Katsas, that would be correct. [00:27:33] Speaker 03: All right, anything further? [00:27:36] Speaker 04: Uh, nothing further. [00:27:38] Speaker 04: Um, um, we would, uh, no, nothing further from me. [00:27:42] Speaker 04: Thank you. [00:27:43] Speaker 03: Thank you, council. [00:27:45] Speaker 03: All right. [00:27:46] Speaker 03: Council for petition. [00:27:48] Speaker 05: Your honors. [00:27:48] Speaker 05: I have nothing further to add. [00:27:50] Speaker 05: Um, I would just like to point out, um, again, if the department of agriculture wanted to charge Adams with fraud. [00:27:59] Speaker 05: or fraud on the DOD, or as Judge Sentel dealt with the case where they charge the breach of an implied duty with respect to a produce transaction, they could have, but they didn't. [00:28:12] Speaker 05: It's solely limited to the failure to pay produce suppliers, and there's no causal connection between failure to report the DOD fraud and the failure to pay. [00:28:23] Speaker 06: Can I just ask one question? [00:28:24] Speaker 06: Suppose we think there's no [00:28:29] Speaker 06: connection, there's no adequately shown connection between his individual acts or omissions and the failure to pay. [00:28:41] Speaker 06: Don't you still have a little bit of a problem because the statute doesn't require causation between [00:28:53] Speaker 06: the individual's misconduct and the violation. [00:28:57] Speaker 06: It requires that he be actively involved in activities that cause the violation. [00:29:04] Speaker 06: So isn't it enough, even if we can't trace what Finberg did to the failure to pay, [00:29:15] Speaker 06: Isn't it enough if the record has substantial evidence that he was involved in the one fraudulent scheme and that scheme was a substantial factor of the companies not being able to pay? [00:29:36] Speaker 05: I think it's different though, because the way that was couched was you indicated that he was involved in the. [00:29:44] Speaker 05: Actively involved that nobody who said he was actively involved in the fraud. [00:29:48] Speaker 05: All he was found, found guilty of and pled guilty to was failure to disclose the fraud. [00:29:53] Speaker 05: There's no evidence that he was a participant in the fraud, so we have to show. [00:29:58] Speaker 05: Hey, if he reported this, would this have prevented the violation from occurring? [00:30:04] Speaker 05: And this court in [00:30:05] Speaker 05: specifically was pretty clear that the legislative history for the amendments in 1995 to the actively involved standard was that Congress wanted to make it clear that the Congress wanted to amend the definition of responsibly connected to provide that individuals were given the opportunity, and I'll quote, to demonstrate they were not responsible for the specific violation. [00:30:29] Speaker 05: In this case, Mr. Finberg is not responsible for the failure to pay Adams Produce suppliers. [00:30:35] Speaker 06: That statute reads a little bit more broadly than that. [00:30:40] Speaker 06: I mean, I guess you could say that concealment as a matter of law can't constitute active involvement, but I'm not sure that's right. [00:30:51] Speaker 06: I can conjure up a hypothetical where the concealment would be absolutely critical. [00:30:57] Speaker 06: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:31:03] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:31:03] Speaker 03: We'll take the case under advisement.