[00:00:00] Speaker 00: Case number 22-5150 et al. [00:00:04] Speaker 00: Maria Isparraguera, appellant, versus Department of the Army et al. [00:00:08] Speaker 00: Mr. Walker for the appellant, Mr. Hinshaw Wood for the appellees. [00:00:13] Speaker 00: Mr. Walker, good morning. [00:00:17] Speaker 04: Thank you, good morning. [00:00:18] Speaker 04: May it please the court. [00:00:19] Speaker 05: Lucas Walker for appellant Maria Isparraguera. [00:00:23] Speaker 05: The Civil Service Reform Act says that career senior executives may not be removed from the senior executive service except for the grounds stated in specific statutes, such as performance under section 35 and misconduct under section 75. [00:00:40] Speaker 05: That guarantee makes career senior executives, like Mrs. Sparraguera, removable from the SES only for cause, not at will. [00:00:49] Speaker 05: It gives them a legitimate expectation of remaining in the SES unless they do something warranting removal under one of those statutes. [00:00:58] Speaker 05: In other words, it gives career executives a protected property interest in their career SES appointment. [00:01:06] Speaker 05: As a result, Ms. [00:01:06] Speaker 05: Asparagara could be deprived of that property interest. [00:01:09] Speaker 05: Her career SES appointment could be taken away from her only through constitutionally adequate procedures, including meaningful notice and opportunity to respond before being removed from the SES. [00:01:22] Speaker 05: But she did not receive anything like that. [00:01:25] Speaker 05: The OSC report that supposedly justified her removal was deliberately withheld. [00:01:31] Speaker 05: So were the results of the department's own investigation, which cleared her of the prohibited personnel practice that OSCE had accused her of. [00:01:39] Speaker 05: It wasn't afforded an opportunity to defend herself, where the decision makers rated her unsatisfactory in order for removal, and her supervisors, who were supposed to be consulted and continued to think that she was one of the best senior executives that they had ever encountered. [00:01:54] Speaker 05: were also cut out of the process that decided her fate and destroyed her 35-year career as a highly respected government attorney. [00:02:05] Speaker 01: Is there any source of criteria as to what constitutes acceptable performance? [00:02:13] Speaker 05: Yes, yes. [00:02:14] Speaker 05: So the term here in section 3592 is less than fully successful executive performance as determined under subchapter two of title 43. [00:02:24] Speaker 05: So it leads back to the systematic appraisal system under section 4312 through 4314. [00:02:31] Speaker 05: And it refers specifically to, so it's a five level rating system. [00:02:35] Speaker 05: What is the top level? [00:02:36] Speaker 05: The top rating, the top level is five. [00:02:38] Speaker 05: So five is outstanding, which is what she was originally rated. [00:02:42] Speaker 05: One is unsatisfactory. [00:02:43] Speaker 05: And those different levels are rigorously defined through OPM and Department of the Army regulations. [00:02:50] Speaker 05: So, what would constitute fully successful performance? [00:02:54] Speaker 05: So, fully successful is level three. [00:02:57] Speaker 05: It meets expectations, essentially. [00:03:00] Speaker 01: And this is you can see this meeting expectations is fully successful. [00:03:04] Speaker 01: Then what is then what's four and five? [00:03:06] Speaker 05: So four and five is basically exceeds expectations and five is outstanding, which is what she was originally rated at level five. [00:03:14] Speaker 05: And those different levels, they're not just a general feeling about how someone feels about how she's doing. [00:03:21] Speaker 05: It's a systematic appraisal system that it has to be defined, what each one of those means. [00:03:27] Speaker 01: And so- What was the last rating, if you will, that's the right term, before it went to the head of the agency? [00:03:37] Speaker 01: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. [00:03:38] Speaker 01: What was her last rating before, or recommended rating before [00:03:42] Speaker 01: the head of the agency issues rendered a decision. [00:03:46] Speaker 05: So her initial rating official rated her five. [00:03:48] Speaker 05: And then there was the performance review board, especially convened review board that we didn't know about until after it made us recommendation. [00:03:55] Speaker 05: It recommended level one unsatisfactory. [00:03:58] Speaker 05: And that is what the recommended was unsatisfactory unsatisfactory. [00:04:02] Speaker 05: Yeah. [00:04:02] Speaker 05: And so that was based on documents we didn't have. [00:04:04] Speaker 05: We didn't even know that they had been convened at the time that will be that as it may. [00:04:10] Speaker 01: It is unsatisfactory. [00:04:12] Speaker 01: which is obviously less than fully successful. [00:04:15] Speaker 05: It is, yes. [00:04:16] Speaker 05: And, but that standard, that's a performance standard. [00:04:19] Speaker 05: Performance standards are regularly viewed as being for cause standards. [00:04:22] Speaker 05: And here, if you look at the regulations in addendum 25 and 26 of our opening brief, you can see how they actually define what each one of those levels [00:04:32] Speaker 05: And in J8 49 or appraisal for the year in question, it also provides definitions of what each of those levels mean. [00:04:41] Speaker 05: So it's it's the sort of standard that you could invoke in a hearing. [00:04:44] Speaker 05: That's the kind of understanding that gives rise to a legitimate expectation of remaining in your position under cases like Perry versus. [00:04:53] Speaker 05: And I would say it is much more rigorous and more carefully defined than performance standards that have been found to establish property interests in other cases. [00:05:04] Speaker 02: So can I just direct you to. [00:05:07] Speaker 02: Griffin seems like that's probably the best, if not one of the best cases for the government here. [00:05:13] Speaker 02: And I appreciate that that involved what was effectively a promotion rather than a demotion. [00:05:18] Speaker 02: But apart from that, do you think there's a meaningful difference in the legal schemes in terms of whether they actually constrained the agency's decision making? [00:05:29] Speaker 05: Yes. [00:05:29] Speaker 05: So I do think that the promotion versus motion standard is very important. [00:05:32] Speaker 05: But in addition to that, Berkeley was very clear that the acceptable assessment that could lead to a pay raise there was not tied to the systematic appraisal system that generally was used to evaluate employees, that five-level system that we have here. [00:05:48] Speaker 05: And it's a very similar system for SES employees there. [00:05:52] Speaker 04: And I would just... I can point you to the... [00:05:59] Speaker 05: To the provisions that talk about that so 5 CFR section or 30 dot 305 a six it describes that five level rating system, the department regulations that are in the end of the opening brief. [00:06:15] Speaker 05: and as well as JA-49 all have rigorous definitions there. [00:06:19] Speaker 05: And it's extremely close to the performance standards that govern non-SES employees. [00:06:24] Speaker 05: So those are in 5 CFR 430.206 and 207. [00:06:30] Speaker 05: And so you can actually compare a lot of the characteristics that have been found to create a property interest, because performance is a 4-plus standard for non-SES employees, apply essentially on the same terms to SES employees. [00:06:43] Speaker 01: I take it that the reason for referring any matter for getting this one, that the path to discharge running through the head of the agency is so that the head of the agency may make a determination other than the one recommended by the next level. [00:07:04] Speaker 05: Yes. [00:07:05] Speaker 05: Yes. [00:07:06] Speaker 05: That is certainly part of it. [00:07:07] Speaker 05: But what matters is the process that leads up to it. [00:07:10] Speaker 05: And whether we had a meaningful opportunity to have notice of the proposed action. [00:07:14] Speaker 01: Wait a minute. [00:07:15] Speaker 01: You're assuming there's a due process in time. [00:07:18] Speaker 01: Yes. [00:07:18] Speaker 01: Yes. [00:07:19] Speaker 01: So let's not assume that. [00:07:20] Speaker 01: Let's talk about whether there is. [00:07:23] Speaker 01: He's contested here. [00:07:25] Speaker 01: In view of this structure and this scheme in which the agency head exercises the final judgment, if you will, [00:07:33] Speaker 01: notwithstanding anything recommended to the head. [00:07:37] Speaker 01: Now in this case, he accepted, he or she, I don't know what was accepted, the last recommendation unsatisfactory. [00:07:45] Speaker 01: But could equally have rejected it, correct? [00:07:48] Speaker 05: It could, but I think there's 2 important things there. [00:07:52] Speaker 05: So one is the entire appraisal system is designed to. [00:07:56] Speaker 05: The entire appraisal system is defined to provide objectiveness and consistency throughout. [00:08:02] Speaker 05: This is why it's defined. [00:08:04] Speaker 05: standards and criteria. [00:08:06] Speaker 05: It's why it's not the head of the agency. [00:08:09] Speaker 05: It's not to say the head of the agency makes the determination. [00:08:11] Speaker 05: It can be a lower official. [00:08:13] Speaker 05: So that's another reason it's different. [00:08:15] Speaker 05: But even apart from that, has to listen to the recommendations of the performance review board who is supposed to have heard from the person. [00:08:24] Speaker 01: Is there any case in which under these various personnel schemes that have been reviewed in which a [00:08:32] Speaker 01: decision that was allocated to the head of the agency was found and held nonetheless to create a entitlement. [00:08:43] Speaker 05: So I think the Federal Circuit's decision in Brenner is actually pretty on point there. [00:08:49] Speaker 05: So that involved that was a state system. [00:08:52] Speaker 05: Sorry? [00:08:52] Speaker 05: Was that a state personnel system? [00:08:54] Speaker 05: No, it involved the VA, the Department of Veterans Affairs. [00:08:59] Speaker 05: And 990F cleared at 1322 and 1329 are kind of the key points there. [00:09:08] Speaker 05: And the Federal Circuit recognized that there was a property interest and therefore due process rights where a VA employee could be removed if the secretary [00:09:18] Speaker 05: of the VA determines that the performance of that employee warrants removal, suspension, or demotion. [00:09:24] Speaker 05: So that was a pretty general standard. [00:09:26] Speaker 05: It was vested in the head of the agency. [00:09:28] Speaker 05: And there was no question there that that supported a property. [00:09:31] Speaker 05: And that was federal circuit consent? [00:09:33] Speaker 01: That's a federal circuit decision. [00:09:34] Speaker 01: So the last case of this court, as I recall it, I understand to deal with the question was Griffith. [00:09:42] Speaker 05: So Griffith did involve a related question. [00:09:45] Speaker 05: I think there are the three categories, there are three characteristics. [00:09:49] Speaker 05: In fact, the three main things that Griffith relied on, they're all different here. [00:09:52] Speaker 05: So one is the appointing authority is not necessarily the agency head. [00:09:56] Speaker 05: Here it wasn't the agency head that made the final decision. [00:09:59] Speaker 05: The statute doesn't require that it be the secretary of the army or the secretary. [00:10:04] Speaker 05: As determined by the head of the agency. [00:10:07] Speaker 05: So it's the appointing authority, and that can be someone lower under the statute here. [00:10:13] Speaker 05: So that's one of the differences. [00:10:15] Speaker 05: Griffith also said that the standard is pretty vague because it's not tied in the existing performance review standards. [00:10:22] Speaker 05: Whereas here, this is directly tied into that five-level system, where those levels are defined by the regulations. [00:10:28] Speaker 05: And it also involved a pay raise, basically a promotion, which is trying to get something more than you already have. [00:10:34] Speaker 05: And here, we're talking about a demotion. [00:10:35] Speaker 05: for interest in retaining for career SES. [00:10:38] Speaker 01: I wouldn't do process supply if a person had a expectation. [00:10:44] Speaker 01: of promotion based on the system? [00:10:47] Speaker 05: It is certainly potentially. [00:10:49] Speaker 01: And that's not a relevant distinction. [00:10:51] Speaker 05: Well, it is. [00:10:52] Speaker 05: The court actually made clear that it was distinguishing cases that involved removals and taking away the positions that people already had. [00:11:00] Speaker 05: And the courts had rarely, if ever, found a property interest in a promotion, which essentially found the pay. [00:11:05] Speaker 01: Well, actually, isn't your claim in part that she was deprived of future [00:11:10] Speaker 01: pay increases or future benefits, which are not vested and maybe never would. [00:11:15] Speaker 05: So it's the guarantee of higher pay. [00:11:18] Speaker 05: So if you're in the SES, you're guaranteed to have 120% of what the GS 15 rate is. [00:11:24] Speaker 05: And she lost that. [00:11:25] Speaker 05: She lost the higher leave. [00:11:28] Speaker 05: She lost the right to non-competitive reinstatement. [00:11:31] Speaker 01: That's all assuming that her performance would have been sufficiently, well, high rated in the future. [00:11:37] Speaker 05: It is contingent on that, but I think that's true in any employment case. [00:11:41] Speaker 05: There are always things that could happen in the future that might warrant removal, but it doesn't change the fact that here, her career SES appointment could be taken away. [00:11:51] Speaker 05: She could be removed from the SES only for performance or other causes as defined by those regulations and policies. [00:12:01] Speaker 04: And so that's kind of the four-cause standard that creates a legitimate expectation. [00:12:08] Speaker 06: All right, we'll give you a couple of minutes in. [00:12:22] Speaker 06: Mr. Henshaw, good morning. [00:12:24] Speaker 03: Good morning, your honor, and may it please the court, Brett Hinchwood for the government. [00:12:28] Speaker 03: I'd like to begin with this court's decision in Griffith, where this court addressed a scheme that stated that an employee was entitled to a within-grade pay increase if their performance was of an acceptable level of competence as determined by the head of the agency. [00:12:42] Speaker 03: That that statute did not create a property interest. [00:12:45] Speaker 03: That statute is, in material respects, indistinguishable from the one here. [00:12:49] Speaker 03: You have a situation where there is a generally worded, quite broad performance standard, less than fully successful executive performance, tied to a set of performance review criteria that ultimately lead to a decision by the head of the agency applying those broad criteria that is vested in his unreviewable discretion about how that employee's performance will be rated. [00:13:11] Speaker 03: that sort of scheme does not create property interest. [00:13:14] Speaker 02: And I think Griffith really, and it's, you know, just- Well, council, I think the biggest distinction is that footnote five of Griffith says that they were assuming that the performance rating system was not tied in at all. [00:13:26] Speaker 02: And so what we have to do here is look at the performance rating system. [00:13:31] Speaker 02: And it's specifically, I think the most important thing here is the regulations. [00:13:37] Speaker 02: As your friend said, level three is pretty specifically defined as meeting all critical elements, whereas level two, which is less than fully successful. [00:13:48] Speaker 02: requires a specific finding that rating official has to find that the person did not meet at least one critical element. [00:13:57] Speaker 02: And that seems to go far beyond what the court thought was happening in Griffith. [00:14:01] Speaker 03: Your Honor, two points. [00:14:03] Speaker 03: First of all, what this court said in Griffith, the footnote in Griffith my colleague is referring to, the court simply noted that there had been new regulations promulgated, and it wasn't taking a view on whether those constrained discretion. [00:14:13] Speaker 03: And I will say, [00:14:15] Speaker 03: What I've heard from my colleague today at the podium is somewhat different from what we have gotten in the briefs in this case. [00:14:20] Speaker 02: Can you just address the regulations? [00:14:22] Speaker 02: Absolutely. [00:14:23] Speaker 02: Address the regulations because putting that aside, the Griffith Court very clearly thought the regulations in that case were essentially circular. [00:14:31] Speaker 02: Said acceptable performance is acceptable performance. [00:14:34] Speaker 02: And my question to you is how are the much more detailed regulations here analogous? [00:14:40] Speaker 03: Your honor, a few different points about that. [00:14:43] Speaker 03: So I think starting from the statute and then working down to the regulation. [00:14:48] Speaker 03: 4313 spells out criteria for performance proposals. [00:14:52] Speaker 03: That's the statutory. [00:14:53] Speaker 03: It's a non-exhaustive list of a few different criteria, which are themselves quite broad. [00:14:58] Speaker 03: Improvements in efficiency or productivity, timeliness of performance, other indications of the effectiveness, productivity, and performance quality of the employees that individual supervises. [00:15:10] Speaker 03: So very broad criteria. [00:15:12] Speaker 02: So are you disputing that to give a less than fully successful [00:15:17] Speaker 03: Rating the regulations seem to say you there must be a finding that on one of the defined critical elements of the job They did not meet Expectation as to SES employees your honor I don't know of any provision that requires that and I'm not sure frankly which provision you're referring to that might be of a regulation appendix D of the army regulation your honor says first of all again not an argument the district court addressed because it's not one that's been raised at this point and [00:15:44] Speaker 03: But what appendix D the army regulation says it defines the categories quite broadly and, you know, the same category, you know, [00:15:50] Speaker 03: Fully successful is defined as performance in relation to performance requirements of such quality to be expected only of a proven competent executive. [00:15:58] Speaker 03: Of course, that person must at least meet requirements for all critical elements, but it doesn't say that simply meeting those elements automatically meets the fully successful standard. [00:16:07] Speaker 03: And then, Your Honor, I would direct you to the provision at the bottom, D3, use of judgment in the rating process. [00:16:13] Speaker 03: Of course, [00:16:14] Speaker 03: Supervisors, performance review boards, and appointing authorities have substantial discretion determining which rating levels to recommend or approve. [00:16:21] Speaker 03: And it's recognized that the rating level definitions will not cover every situation in citing a rating. [00:16:25] Speaker 03: For that reason, supervisors, BRBs, and appointing authorities will be required to exercise judgment when such circumstances arise. [00:16:32] Speaker 03: It's very difficult for me to derive any [00:16:35] Speaker 03: on great objective standards out of that. [00:16:38] Speaker 02: Right. [00:16:38] Speaker 02: So you think so to compare that to a statute that says this employee can only be dismissed for cause. [00:16:47] Speaker 02: Obviously that statute to envisions a lot of discretion. [00:16:51] Speaker 02: But it's discretion in identifying whether a standard has been met. [00:16:57] Speaker 02: And I think the point is that in this appendix, the difference between level three and level two is fairly well defined in terms of providing the type of, as Griffith puts it, I think some meaningful limit on the discretion to be exercised. [00:17:14] Speaker 02: I just don't, I'm not sure what, let me ask this. [00:17:17] Speaker 02: Is there another case apart from Griffith that you think is sort of, finds analogous language [00:17:26] Speaker 02: not create a property interest. [00:17:29] Speaker 03: I'm not aware of specific cases that have addressed [00:17:33] Speaker 03: circumstances quite like that aside from Griffith. [00:17:36] Speaker 03: I mean, what I will say is the fact that an agency creates or the statute creates sort of broad guideposts to try to guide the discretion of the decision maker while expressly reserving and recognizing that these guideposts are not exhaustive, are not going to cover every situation, and that they are not ultimately restricting the decision maker's discretion. [00:17:58] Speaker 03: isn't the kind of thing that would create a property. [00:18:00] Speaker 03: I think you're back to the same analysis this court undertook in Griffith. [00:18:04] Speaker 03: Now, and again, I would just emphasize the district court didn't address whether these regulations separately create a property interest that the statute does not, precisely because it's not an argument that had been raised to the district court. [00:18:14] Speaker 03: Now, I'm happy to, you know, again, but I don't think it matters insofar as, I mean, even just from the face of this particular [00:18:23] Speaker 03: regulation that we've just been discussing. [00:18:24] Speaker 03: I mean, the discretion is given. [00:18:26] Speaker 02: I appreciate those points. [00:18:28] Speaker 02: So what about, I'm not sure we have in mind the same test. [00:18:32] Speaker 02: So Perry V. Senderman says a property interest is created by a provision that says you'll continue in your job so long as you do satisfactory work. [00:18:43] Speaker 02: Ashton V. Civiletti is very similar. [00:18:46] Speaker 02: How is that? [00:18:48] Speaker 02: How would that? [00:18:50] Speaker 02: If less than fully successful is so vague, wouldn't those be insufficient as well? [00:18:55] Speaker 03: I think it depends also on the other context that goes into assessing whether there's a legitimate expectation of continued employment based on the particular source of law that's at issue there. [00:19:07] Speaker 03: So the district court here and [00:19:09] Speaker 03: quite appropriately looked at other provisions of the CSRA that do clearly create a property interest unlike this one. [00:19:17] Speaker 03: It looked at the purposes of this program as its court did in Griffith, recognizing that Congress created this system to govern the employment of executives at the highest levels of government service and wanted that system to be modeled on private sector executive recruitment and retention systems and to have [00:19:38] Speaker 03: removals be, as the Senate report put it, legally unencumbered when it comes to these sort of performance-based removals, precisely because of the importance of replacing. [00:19:47] Speaker 02: So you don't think there's a meaningful difference in sort of the text if all we had in front of us was less than fully successful compared to inefficiency or the satisfactory work. [00:19:59] Speaker 02: And instead, it's about the specific context of this statute. [00:20:02] Speaker 03: I mean, I don't think you can abstract it from the context. [00:20:04] Speaker 03: I certainly think this standard is quite different from something like misconduct or inefficiency or neglect. [00:20:10] Speaker 03: I mean, clearly it's a higher, sorry, this is a lower standard in that respect. [00:20:14] Speaker 03: You don't have to demonstrate neglect to include someone who's less than fully successful. [00:20:19] Speaker 03: So I certainly think that there are gradations here. [00:20:23] Speaker 02: Yeah. [00:20:23] Speaker 02: But one thing I'm wondering about is inefficiency. [00:20:26] Speaker 02: Is that inefficiency versus less than fully successful? [00:20:31] Speaker 02: Those seem roughly analogous, right? [00:20:34] Speaker 03: I think you can be less than fully successful for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with inefficiency, right? [00:20:38] Speaker 03: That your performance is not up to snuff. [00:20:41] Speaker 03: Or I mean, here, Your Honor, you have a somewhat unusual situation where, frankly, what the appointing authority determines is they have lost confidence in this particular employee based on their conduct, particularly to serve in the position that that individual had, namely as chief personnel attorney for the army, given their conduct in the earlier division chief hiring process. [00:21:01] Speaker 03: So, you know, I think that is an illustration of the kinds of things that can legitimately lead one to conclude that performance is less than fully successful and that performance is, you know, legitimate to rate an individual, you know, at that satisfactory or unsuccessful level. [00:21:25] Speaker 06: If there are no further questions. [00:21:27] Speaker 06: All right. [00:21:28] Speaker 06: Thank you. [00:21:28] Speaker 06: Thank you. [00:21:30] Speaker 06: Mr. Hinchel, why don't you take two minutes? [00:21:34] Speaker 06: I'm sorry, Mr. Walker. [00:21:40] Speaker 06: Thank you. [00:21:42] Speaker 05: The question here is whether there are rules or standards or the sort that you could invoke in a hearing and argue that that standard has not met and doesn't justify room. [00:21:50] Speaker 05: That's Perry versus syndrome. [00:21:52] Speaker 05: In Ashton, in Hall, this court found satisfactory performance was enough when it was in the removal context. [00:21:59] Speaker 05: In Brenner, performance warrants demotion. [00:22:01] Speaker 01: That was not. [00:22:02] Speaker 01: Sorry? [00:22:03] Speaker 01: I want to ask you about Brenner, I guess, because you mentioned it earlier as well. [00:22:10] Speaker 01: There was an APA. [00:22:12] Speaker 04: claim in that case, right? [00:22:15] Speaker 01: And it seemed that the statute in question there provided that there must be, that the decision removal, demotion or suspension under 714 must be supported with specific reasons. [00:22:34] Speaker 01: Absent to the articulation of specific reasons, agency action is ineffective as it does not comply with statutory requirements. [00:22:42] Speaker 01: Anything like that here? [00:22:44] Speaker 05: So I do think that here, if you look at section 4312 through 14 of the statute and the regulations, you do find those standards have to be articulated. [00:22:54] Speaker 05: The process that is supposed to be followed is supposed to, if you look at JAA 49 onward, you'll see the extensive explanations that are supposed to be part of that process and that she's supposed to be able to respond to along the way. [00:23:07] Speaker 05: But I also think that that's really about process. [00:23:10] Speaker 05: Process is you get a decision that it's civic reasons. [00:23:13] Speaker 05: It doesn't say what those reasons have to be or how the good they have to. [00:23:16] Speaker 05: So that's kind of the process that you're entitled. [00:23:19] Speaker 01: That doesn't matter whether there's a review. [00:23:21] Speaker 05: They're going to be held to that standard. [00:23:24] Speaker 05: Yes, but that's the reasonable. [00:23:25] Speaker 05: That's really the quality of the reasoning or the process that you're getting. [00:23:28] Speaker 05: The substantive standard was just the secretary thinks your performance warrants emotion or removal. [00:23:34] Speaker 05: And so it was a much less rigorously defined standard than we have here. [00:23:39] Speaker 05: And it might require judgment, as the government recognized, but every kind of evaluation requires judgment. [00:23:44] Speaker 05: It doesn't make it fully subjective. [00:23:47] Speaker 01: Specifically points that out, right? [00:23:53] Speaker 01: Where was it? [00:23:54] Speaker 01: Day 26. [00:23:55] Speaker 01: after going through the level of descriptions, performance rating levels and all of that. [00:24:05] Speaker 01: Supervisory performance review boards and appointing authorities have substantial discretion in determining which rating levels to recommend or improve. [00:24:13] Speaker 01: Authorities will be required to exercise judgment when such circumstances arise. [00:24:17] Speaker 01: I'm going to surely suggest that there is intended to be here a level of discretion [00:24:24] Speaker 01: different from what would ordinarily imply. [00:24:27] Speaker 05: Well, there may be a level of discretion, and it might mean that the kind of review that you end up being entitled to ends up being perhaps more deferential in some ways, because the standard could be a little bit more capacious. [00:24:38] Speaker 05: But it's still a standard that could invoke unsatisfactory performance. [00:24:43] Speaker 05: is defined as repeated instances of falling down on the job and failing to lead people and being counterproductive. [00:24:49] Speaker 05: Those are the sorts of things that you can tell the person who's evaluating you. [00:24:52] Speaker 05: If you're given the chance to defend yourself, that you haven't met that standard. [00:24:57] Speaker 05: And in fact, you know, her supervisors who actually saw her work day to day, but none of that was true. [00:25:02] Speaker 05: So she'd been able to be given the notice, the opportunity to respond. [00:25:05] Speaker 05: She could have invoked that standard. [00:25:07] Speaker 05: She could have persuaded someone to make a different decision. [00:25:10] Speaker 05: And that's all that Laudermill looks to. [00:25:12] Speaker 05: You know, were there arguments to be made a standard that would justify removal is not satisfied. [00:25:17] Speaker 02: What do you think is the best case from this court or the Supreme Court finding a similarly phrased statute to give rise to a property interest? [00:25:25] Speaker 05: I would say Ashton versus Siboletti probably is the closest one. [00:25:29] Speaker 05: It says if you continue to do satisfactory work, that was found to be [00:25:35] Speaker 05: performance standard. [00:25:36] Speaker 05: I also point to the Ninth Circuit. [00:25:37] Speaker 05: Is that determined by the agency head? [00:25:38] Speaker 05: Do you remember? [00:25:40] Speaker 05: I do not recall. [00:25:41] Speaker 05: It would certainly have been a superior. [00:25:43] Speaker 05: Yeah, so I don't recall in that one. [00:25:46] Speaker 05: In fact, it was by the secretary of the VA. [00:25:48] Speaker 05: It was the agency that specifically made that call. [00:25:50] Speaker 05: And the Ninth Circuit's Wheaton decision also had a very similarly worded standard in terms of performance and satisfaction. [00:25:57] Speaker 06: All right.