[00:00:00] Speaker 02:
work below improperly construed the term mountable.

[00:00:04] Speaker 02:
Rather than giving the term its plain and ordinary meaning, which is capable of being mounted, it instead gave it the meaning of having a feature for mounting.

[00:00:15] Speaker 02:
While having a feature for mounting may indeed be a definition of mountable, it is not the plain and ordinary meaning, obviously because in fact it incorporates the notion of a feature

[00:00:28] Speaker 02:
which is not necessary.

[00:00:29] Speaker 01:
In the confidential blue brief, you say, the fact that each one of the relevant product's ports is located on the bottom of the product is critical.

[00:00:43] Speaker 01:
If they were solely meant for purposes other than mounting, then they would not have been located in centralized portions of the bottom of the frame where they could make the dots to be used as digital picture frames as provided in their advertising literature.

[00:00:57] Speaker 01:
Where else could the ports have been located?

[00:01:01] Speaker 01:
And wouldn't your argument apply even if the ports were located on the top or the side portion?

[00:01:07] Speaker 02:
Well, I think they would, given the fact that, depending on whether the image rotates on the tablet or not, depending on its orientation.

[00:01:15] Speaker 02:
Right.

[00:01:16] Speaker 02:
It could be on any of the sides.

[00:01:18] Speaker 02:
It could have been on the back.

[00:01:21] Speaker 01:
But.

[00:01:24] Speaker 01:
What else?

[00:01:25] Speaker 01:
You're looking at me and I'm looking at you.

[00:01:27] Speaker 01:
I mean, I find the argument Zizun at best.

[00:01:33] Speaker 02:
Well, the argument with respect to the ports is simply that there is a, that related to the granting of the summary judgment.

[00:01:42] Speaker 02:
And our argument was that there was a port on the tablet and there was a corresponding connector on a dock and that

[00:01:54] Speaker 02:
to say that as a matter of law that the mating of the connector and the port did not constitute mounting was not justified as a matter of law.

[00:02:06] Speaker 01:
In your response in March of 2005, response to the 2004 office action, you say, applicant respectfully asserts that none of the cited references teach

[00:02:21] Speaker 01:
a standalone and mountable picture frame comprising a digital still camera as recited in claims 14 and 30.

[00:02:28] Speaker 01:
The examiner has rejected 14 and 30 over Jacqueline in light of SUSO.

[00:02:35] Speaker 01:
SUSO is directed to, quote, an information communication terminal device having a video camera which is easy to carry, essentially a cellular camera phone.

[00:02:47] Speaker 01:
As such,

[00:02:49] Speaker 01:
you say, it would be completely unsuitable for mounting on a wall to display pictures.

[00:02:55] Speaker 01:
How is the current claim construction argument not attempting to recapture subject matter that was surrendered during prosecution?

[00:03:04] Speaker 02:
Well, we were saying, as you read in the earlier portion, there was a statement made that it's not suitable for mounting.

[00:03:13] Speaker 02:
But it was differentiated based on a number of the features, namely that it was not suitable as a substitute for a conventional picture frame.

[00:03:32] Speaker 02:
Well, and as I have begun to say, by inserting this notion of a feature into the meaning of the term mountable,

[00:03:43] Speaker 02:
It is a prime example of what happens when you construe symbol terms in more than is needed.

[00:03:53] Speaker 02:
Because here the trial court, after inserting the term feature, which was not in plain and not in the patent, when discussing multiple, then went on to interpret or construe the feature.

[00:04:08] Speaker 02:
So now we're construing something that was never there.

[00:04:11] Speaker 02:
And in that construction,

[00:04:12] Speaker 02:
the judge went further to say, than simply to say feature for mounting, and said now it is an intrinsic feature for mounting, but not a feature that merely makes the device capable of being mounted, or capable of being mounted.

[00:04:29] Speaker 02:
So if we parse that, we have an intrinsic feature, but it can't by itself, not merely rendering it mountable.

[00:04:39] Speaker 02:
Those two statements can be reconciled.

[00:04:42] Speaker 02:
An intrinsic feature for mounting necessarily makes the device mountable.

[00:04:50] Speaker 02:
So we have that.

[00:04:51] Speaker 02:
Then he went further in saying that in addition to those two requirements, he was not requiring that the device contain all of the components necessary to mount the device.

[00:05:03] Speaker 02:
So we have the necessity of an intrinsic feature for mounting

[00:05:08] Speaker 02:
a negative limitation saying that not merely making it capable of mounting and that all of the improvements along to mount advice need not be part of the advice.

[00:05:18] Speaker 02:
All of that to modify the term mountable, which is not a term of art and requires no of

[00:05:29] Speaker 02:
scientific or specialized knowledge.

[00:05:31] Speaker 03:
Do you also argue that even under the district court's construction, you believe there were questions of fact with regard to the docking port?

[00:05:43] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:05:43] Speaker 02:
Even in his application of his construction, I think that both the form factor, that is the size, shape, weight,

[00:05:55] Speaker 03:
No, but I don't want to talk about the size, shape, and weight of docking ports.

[00:05:58] Speaker 03:
Why don't you tell me why there is still a question of fact under his construction about docking ports?

[00:06:03] Speaker 03:
And is your argument a question of fact in terms of literal infringement, doctor of equivalence both?

[00:06:08] Speaker 03:
What exactly?

[00:06:09] Speaker 02:
Well, the court found that the sensitive devices could be used, or the ports could be used without mounting the device.

[00:06:18] Speaker 02:
Therefore, they were not an intrinsic feature for mounting the device.

[00:06:23] Speaker 02:
There were also arguments made that

[00:06:25] Speaker 02:
that the ports themselves were designed for other functions rather than mounting.

[00:06:31] Speaker 02:
Therefore, they weren't intrinsic features for mounting, which ignores the factual question of whether or not they could be used for more than one thing.

[00:06:39] Speaker 00:
I think this is probably your strongest argument here, or the strongest part of your case.

[00:06:45] Speaker 00:
And it might be maybe the only, if you do have a strong part, this is it.

[00:06:51] Speaker 00:
And you're going to have to convince me, though,

[00:06:55] Speaker 00:
getting a port that's a separate device and that's got the feature so that it fits in, getting the docking station, I'm sorry, that's a separate device that's got a feature that fits into the port, that that makes the tablet mountable.

[00:07:12] Speaker 02:
Well, I think the port and the connector and the way they go together is analogous to a nail in the wall.

[00:07:20] Speaker 02:
And, you know, when you hang your picture.

[00:07:22] Speaker 00:
See, and that's, I think that's the difficulty I have with your argument.

[00:07:26] Speaker 00:
Because everything would be capable of mounting.

[00:07:29] Speaker 00:
You could get an automobile and mount it on a wall.

[00:07:33] Speaker 00:
You could get a giraffe, you know, and mount a giraffe on a fence.

[00:07:38] Speaker 00:
They're capable of being mounted.

[00:07:40] Speaker 00:
When no one's going to say that a giraffe is mountable.

[00:07:45] Speaker 00:
I mean, unless maybe the giraffe has a little ring on him, you know,

[00:07:51] Speaker 00:
intrinsic feature.

[00:07:53] Speaker 02:
Right, Your Honor.

[00:07:54] Speaker 02:
But even the appellees don't argue.

[00:07:57] Speaker 02:
I mean, that is essentially their argument is that you must construe mountable to mean something other than capable of being mounted because everything's mountable.

[00:08:06] Speaker 02:
But even their argument, well, first, there's nothing in the record that establishes that with respect to picture frames.

[00:08:12] Speaker 02:
And second, there is... Doesn't this record

[00:08:21] Speaker 03:
actually present lots of evidence in iPad user manuals and elsewhere where it's very much the intention of the producers that that port on the bottom be used for mounting because they expressly indicate so and teach people how to do it and use it as a digital picture frame.

[00:08:41] Speaker 03:
So unlike the giraffe where maybe he doesn't come with the instruction manual on how to mount him,

[00:08:46] Speaker 03:
This one actually comes with an instruction manual on how to mount it.

[00:08:51] Speaker 02:
There are things that are not mountable.

[00:08:53] Speaker 02:
That's ultimately a question of fact.

[00:08:55] Speaker 02:
I suspect that you can design a picture frame of sufficient weight, size, construction that it wouldn't be mountable.

[00:09:04] Speaker 02:
That seems to me to go more to an issue of validity, which claimed construction and validity are separate issues.

[00:09:13] Speaker 02:
causes us a problem with validity down the line, and so be it.

[00:09:17] Speaker 02:
But we're entitled to the broad definition of, you know, birth order.

[00:09:21] Speaker 02:
We get the broad definition of a broad plane.

[00:09:27] Speaker 03:
Do you want to save the rest of your time for a bottle?

[00:09:30] Speaker 01:
Sure.

[00:09:32] Speaker 01:
I just want to say I think your giraffe argument is spotty at best.

[00:09:41] Speaker 03:
Now, can you please tell me how you're dividing up your time?

[00:09:45] Speaker 03:
It's a little confusing for me.

[00:09:46] Speaker 03:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:09:47] Speaker 03:
Lauren Fletcher on behalf of Apple, and I will be presenting argument for all five Apple Leafs today.

[00:09:52] Speaker 03:
I've reserved 13 minutes.

[00:09:54] Speaker 03:
If there are any issues that arise that are specific to Samsung, then Mr. Davis has reserved two minutes of Apple Leafs.

[00:10:03] Speaker 03:
The district court correctly construed the term mountable

[00:10:06] Speaker 03:
importance with its plain and ordinary meaning in the context of the claim language, the specification, and the statements made by the applicant during prosecution.

[00:10:15] Speaker 03:
First, going to the claim language.

[00:10:18] Speaker 03:
Each claim here recites a stand-alone and mountable picture display and frame.

[00:10:23] Speaker 03:
Why don't we move you since most of our questions are on this question of what are the docking for as a factual

[00:10:29] Speaker 03:
matter under the court's construction creates a question of fact.

[00:10:34] Speaker 03:
Sure.

[00:10:34] Speaker 03:
There's no factual dispute presented by a prefectus who had the obligation and the burden to present a factual dispute.

[00:10:41] Speaker 03:
Doctrine of equivalence was not raised here, so the only question is literal infringement.

[00:10:46] Speaker 03:
As to the communication courts, the evidence here demonstrates that they are not features for mounting.

[00:10:52] Speaker 03:
They are not features of the tablets for mounting.

[00:10:54] Speaker 00:
Only the evidence question.

[00:10:56] Speaker 03:
In the patent, one of the figures shows

[00:10:59] Speaker 03:
what looks like two holes, receptacles on the back of a picture frame, right?

[00:11:02] Speaker 03:
That's pretty standard.

[00:11:03] Speaker 03:
I mean, I've had picture frames that come with two holes on the back.

[00:11:07] Speaker 03:
They're just holes.

[00:11:07] Speaker 03:
They have no purpose other than you nail or you screw something into the wall and then you lift them up and put them on that.

[00:11:13] Speaker 03:
You know what I'm talking about, right?

[00:11:15] Speaker 03:
Okay.

[00:11:16] Speaker 03:
And the patent has a picture that looks similar to that and points to two holes on the back.

[00:11:22] Speaker 03:
And that's part of how that picture frame is mounted.

[00:11:25] Speaker 03:
Is that right?

[00:11:26] Speaker 03:
Well, no, actually, Your Honor, the example in figure two of the patent shows attachment apparatus 28, which shows clips or anchors.

[00:11:35] Speaker 03:
There are also interfaces or holes shown in there, interface 30, which are not described as features for mounting it or not.

[00:11:42] Speaker 03:
used for mounting in the past.

[00:11:44] Speaker 00:
Well, of course not.

[00:11:45] Speaker 00:
Those holes are on the bottom right.

[00:11:46] Speaker 00:
You couldn't possibly mount something and have it stay upright.

[00:11:49] Speaker 03:
I don't know what those holes are for, but they can't be for mounting.

[00:11:51] Speaker 03:
Those holes are for exactly the same thing as the ports, the communication ports in the accused tablet devices.

[00:11:57] Speaker 03:
They are places to plug in to make connections, either to charge power or to connect to other devices such as televisions and computers.

[00:12:06] Speaker 03:
And that's exactly what the purpose is of the communication ports in the tablet.

[00:12:10] Speaker 00:
Where would that be a feature for mounting?

[00:12:13] Speaker 03:
They're not taught in the patties being the feature for mounting and they're not used for mounting.

[00:12:18] Speaker 03:
And in fact, the evidence, the unscathed evidence in the record here was that it's the separate docking stations themselves, not the ports that are used for mounting.

[00:12:27] Speaker 03:
And that record's evidence is that pages A, 448 to 450

[00:12:32] Speaker 03:
The docking station operates in conjunction with the port to mount.

[00:12:36] Speaker 03:
There is a male connector that enters the female connection port, right?

[00:12:41] Speaker 00:
That is what holds it in place.

[00:12:42] Speaker 03:
Well, actually the evidence in the expert testimony shows that it's actually the docking station, the accessory itself, the separate accessory that's providing the support.

[00:12:51] Speaker 03:
The port is only there to provide the communication access and to connect them so that power

[00:12:57] Speaker 03:
and other communications can transfer between?

[00:13:00] Speaker 03:
Well, there's a male and a female connection going on there between at least the documentations that I saw the pictures of and the various tablet and or iPhone and other devices, right?

[00:13:10] Speaker 03:
There's a male female connector.

[00:13:12] Speaker 03:
That's right.

[00:13:12] Speaker 03:
So while it's true that you could pop something up against the wall or sit it on a stand and it would be mountable, but isn't it also true that when you put also include a male and a female connector there, doesn't that hold it in place

[00:13:25] Speaker 03:
in that mountable position more securely?

[00:13:28] Speaker 03:
The evidence was that it doesn't, that it's the docking facility itself that provides the complete support.

[00:13:33] Speaker 03:
And if there was anything within the connector that was providing it... So non-common defensible?

[00:13:38] Speaker 03:
I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all.

[00:13:41] Speaker 03:
The connectors are still somewhat flexible.

[00:13:44] Speaker 03:
And sitting in the docking station, it was shown that whether you use the ports or not, the docking station holds up the device in exactly the same way, and that the communication board isn't doing that.

[00:13:53] Speaker 03:
And in fact, Perfectus' own expert testified that he had done no testing or measurements to see whether the port itself contributes to that at all.

[00:14:02] Speaker 03:
This is at page 8, 490 of the record and 490-38.

[00:14:05] Speaker 03:
Let's go back to my example.

[00:14:07] Speaker 03:
I've seen lots and lots of picture frames, even if you're saying that that figure in the patent isn't exactly the picture frame I'm talking about.

[00:14:14] Speaker 03:
Let's talk about my picture frames.

[00:14:16] Speaker 03:
Picture frames with holes on the back.

[00:14:18] Speaker 03:
a hole, two holes, you know, spaced out, the only purpose of these holes, undisputed by everybody would be to hang it on the wall, right?

[00:14:26] Speaker 03:
You put a nail, you put a screw, and then you lift the picture frame up and you put it on those holes.

[00:14:31] Speaker 03:
Would that meet the mountable definition of these claims?

[00:14:37] Speaker 03:
where those are features in there for the whole purpose is for them to be able to use to mount onto a wall.

[00:14:42] Speaker 03:
But now the question is, does it have to be the sole purpose?

[00:14:46] Speaker 03:
It doesn't have to be the sole purpose, but it has to be a feature for mounting, meaning that a purpose that the feature is for is to mount it.

[00:14:55] Speaker 03:
Here in the tablet devices, the ports themselves are not used for that purpose.

[00:15:00] Speaker 03:
It's the documentation itself that provides it.

[00:15:04] Speaker 03:
And the example that you gave of the holes in the back of the device would be for mounting onto a wall.

[00:15:10] Speaker 03:
It's a little bit different here where we have something that... Can you turn to page 1218 of your appendix, please?

[00:15:29] Speaker 03:
Page 12, 18, this is volume 6.

[00:15:36] Speaker 03:
I'll wait until everybody has it.

[00:15:48] Speaker 03:
Page 12, 18, volume 6.

[00:15:55] Speaker 03:
Okay.

[00:15:55] Speaker 03:
A deposition, so it's the four little figures.

[00:15:58] Speaker 03:
I'm on page 82 at the top.

[00:16:01] Speaker 03:
It's my understanding that this is Dell expert witness.

[00:16:04] Speaker 03:
Am I right about that?

[00:16:05] Speaker 03:
This is a Dell witness.

[00:16:07] Speaker 03:
I don't believe it was the expert, but it's a Dell witness.

[00:16:09] Speaker 03:
I think he may have been the expert, but even if he's not, he's a Dell witness.

[00:16:13] Speaker 03:
And doesn't he say that there's tension between the two connectors and that that's one thing holding them together and preventing them from falling back?

[00:16:23] Speaker 03:
It's a combination probably of many aspects.

[00:16:28] Speaker 03:
The question to be clear is how you hold the device on the docking station and keep it from slipping off the dock.

[00:16:36] Speaker 03:
And he says, it's the connectors that do it.

[00:16:38] Speaker 03:
Isn't that a factual testimony?

[00:16:40] Speaker 03:
I understand the factual testimony you pointed me to goes the other way, but this is summary judgment.

[00:16:46] Speaker 03:
And actually what he says is, and from falling back, it's the plastic part that holds it in place.

[00:16:50] Speaker 03:
That's part of the docking accessory.

[00:16:52] Speaker 03:
That's not the connector.

[00:16:55] Speaker 03:
The tension between the two connectors is what's holding it together.

[00:16:59] Speaker 03:
It's probably a combination of many aspects.

[00:17:02] Speaker 03:
I think I reversed the words a little bit, but I'm close.

[00:17:04] Speaker 03:
That's right.

[00:17:05] Speaker 03:
So he does acknowledge the tension between the connectors, but it's the bottom connector that's part of the dock.

[00:17:10] Speaker 00:
Well, you say that, but that's not what he says.

[00:17:11] Speaker 03:
He doesn't say that.

[00:17:12] Speaker 03:
This is a question of fact.

[00:17:13] Speaker 03:
This is summary judgment.

[00:17:15] Speaker 03:
Your explanation is awesome, and you may prevail a trial, but why doesn't this create exactly the question of fact that the plaintiff says it does?

[00:17:22] Speaker 03:
Because this doesn't rise to the level of a factual dispute when considered in the

[00:17:26] Speaker 03:
record evidence as a whole, the connector, even if there is some tension there, it's absurd to say that there isn't.

[00:17:43] Speaker 03:
functioning to hold it in place.

[00:17:46] Speaker 03:
It would define common sense.

[00:17:48] Speaker 03:
There's no juror that would ever agree with you if you said it does nothing in terms of holding it in place.

[00:17:53] Speaker 03:
I'm not saying that there's no tension, but again, these are tablet computers, not iPhones.

[00:17:57] Speaker 03:
They are larger devices than that.

[00:17:59] Speaker 03:
And the connector itself... These are iPads, right?

[00:18:03] Speaker 00:
And tablets.

[00:18:03] Speaker 00:
That's what we're talking about, an iPad.

[00:18:05] Speaker 00:
Right.

[00:18:05] Speaker 00:
Probably even an iPad mini, right?

[00:18:07] Speaker 03:
No, no.

[00:18:08] Speaker 03:
These are just the larger, older versions of iPads and tablet devices.

[00:18:12] Speaker 03:
And then there is a difference as you get to smaller devices and potentially to iPhone.

[00:18:17] Speaker 00:
But even with a smaller device, it's not just the connection from the wire to that port that would hold it up.

[00:18:24] Speaker 00:
I mean, I've got docking stations from iPhone and it's, you know, if I try to just hold it up just by the wire alone, it's going to fall over.

[00:18:32] Speaker 00:
There's something else that really holds it up.

[00:18:34] Speaker 03:
That's exactly right.

[00:18:36] Speaker 01:
I just want to follow up on that is I assume

[00:18:42] Speaker 01:
Every one of us has used these things in some fashion, and I assume that the leverage factor, if you just use that old-fashioned male connector into the iPad and you left it leaning against it, that the potential for touching it and snapping the thing would be the very reason that you want to have a docking station rather than

[00:19:09] Speaker 01:
Just those two items.

[00:19:10] Speaker 03:
That's exactly right.

[00:19:11] Speaker 03:
And that's why there was expert testimony on this showing that just the connector itself isn't enough.

[00:19:16] Speaker 03:
And even the connector in the docking station, the weight is being held by the docking station in the lip there, even with some tension created by the... But the problem is everyone agrees that nails in the wall, in fact the district court's construction allowed for screws or nails.

[00:19:32] Speaker 03:
could be necessary.

[00:19:34] Speaker 03:
You agreed with me a picture frame with two holes on the back is now going to fall within these claims.

[00:19:40] Speaker 03:
That doesn't mean it has to contain the screws.

[00:19:42] Speaker 03:
The screws would be the only thing holding it on the wall.

[00:19:44] Speaker 03:
The screws would be the only thing preventing it from snapping and falling over.

[00:19:47] Speaker 03:
But we all agree it doesn't have to contain the screws or the nails in order to fall within these claims.

[00:19:52] Speaker 03:
Those can be external.

[00:19:53] Speaker 03:
Why isn't the docking, like the wall, for example, is also external.

[00:19:57] Speaker 03:
Why isn't the docking station

[00:19:59] Speaker 03:
Like the screws in the nail, it's an external component which, working together with an intrinsic feature, holds the thing in place.

[00:20:06] Speaker 03:
The difference is that the docking station here is the thing that's doing the work.

[00:20:09] Speaker 03:
But the wall and the nails are the thing that's doing the work in my example, right?

[00:20:13] Speaker 03:
All the picture frame has is a hole on the back, and you've already conceded that would qualify to these claims.

[00:20:18] Speaker 03:
But there still has to be a feature intrinsic to the device that's fore-mounting.

[00:20:24] Speaker 03:
Even with the ports that are in there, the ports aren't doing the mounting.

[00:20:27] Speaker 03:
It's still the docking station.

[00:20:29] Speaker 03:
The ports are making that connection.

[00:20:31] Speaker 03:
Even with some tension there, the record evidence that we've cited in a brief from the experts was that that still isn't enough because it is flexible, even with the connections.

[00:20:41] Speaker 03:
To the extent that the connectors are providing that support, it comes from the bottom half of it, the base, which is part of the docking accessory.

[00:20:50] Speaker 03:
there is still no intrinsic feature in the top.

[00:20:52] Speaker 03:
I don't understand how that, you haven't explained to me how that's different from a picture frame with two holes in the back and nails in the wall.

[00:20:59] Speaker 03:
Without the nails, without the wall, without the nails, without the screws, the thing doesn't stand up.

[00:21:06] Speaker 03:
But the holes work in conjunction with the nails in the wall in order to hold it up.

[00:21:11] Speaker 03:
And so those holes would make it mountable.

[00:21:13] Speaker 03:
That would be an intrinsic feature.

[00:21:14] Speaker 03:
of the picture frame that would make it mountable.

[00:21:16] Speaker 03:
I don't understand why the hole in the bottom here when used with the docking station.

[00:21:21] Speaker 03:
And without the holes in the picture frame example, it would not be mountable.

[00:21:24] Speaker 03:
Right.

[00:21:24] Speaker 03:
Here, without the port, it's still mountable in exactly the same way because it still sits on the docking station in exactly the same way.

[00:21:30] Speaker 01:
So if you don't push it down and it doesn't actually link,

[00:21:34] Speaker 01:
it's sitting in that docking station and held in place.

[00:21:37] Speaker 03:
Exactly.

[00:21:38] Speaker 03:
And even in our briefing and in the record, we showed examples where the tablet was turned on its side, not using the communication port, still sat in the docking station in exactly the same way.

[00:21:49] Speaker 03:
It was supported by the docking station in exactly the same way, because the docking station itself is the only feature for mounting.

[00:21:56] Speaker 03:
The communication port isn't contributing to that.

[00:21:59] Speaker 03:
Well, you say it's not contributing to that, but this Dell witness says it is.

[00:22:02] Speaker 03:
Well, the Dell witness says there's some tension there, but the expert testimony... And he says it's holding... That's one thing that's holding it together.

[00:22:10] Speaker 03:
Holding it together, not in place, in standing upright.

[00:22:14] Speaker 03:
And the only testimony on this comes from the experts.

[00:22:17] Speaker 03:
And even Perfectus's own expert said he has no basis, this is at page 8-490, for saying how much of the weight of the device is being supported by the dock as opposed to the connector.

[00:22:27] Speaker 03:
he didn't do the analysis, and that's exactly what he said at 490.

[00:22:31] Speaker 03:
So even with some- He didn't know how much of it is, but he believed they're both doing it, and so it's a question of fact.

[00:22:37] Speaker 03:
I just don't see how this doesn't go to a security.

[00:22:39] Speaker 03:
The fact that this expert didn't put in that opinion, didn't put in that testimony, it doesn't rise to a level of creating a fact dispute, because all of the evidence shows that what's actually holding the tablets upright is the separate dock accessory.

[00:22:53] Speaker 03:
There may be tension, there is tension between the connectors, but that's not what's holding it upright.

[00:22:57] Speaker 03:
If you take the docking port away, that's not going to be enough because it's so flexible, as the experts said.

[00:23:03] Speaker 03:
And if you turn the tablets on their sides and don't use the communication port, it's still holding, the docking station is still holding the device in the same way.

[00:23:13] Speaker 00:
Your time has expired.

[00:23:15] Speaker 03:
Do you have anything that you want to add?

[00:23:18] Speaker 03:
OK.

[00:23:19] Speaker 03:
If I take one thing, you're honored.

[00:23:21] Speaker 03:
Well, it's easier to have the two times.

[00:23:24] Speaker 03:
Communication port argument does not apply to the Hewlett-Pattern devices, which don't have the communication ports.

[00:23:31] Speaker 00:
Thank you very much.

[00:23:32] Speaker 03:
Can we have a little bit of a rebuttal time?

[00:23:35] Speaker 03:
Mr. Wright?

[00:23:37] Speaker 02:
Very briefly.

[00:23:40] Speaker 02:
In all this discussion of the ports and whether they can be put on docks without using the ports, the requirement is for a feature for mounting.

[00:23:48] Speaker 02:
It doesn't require you to use the feature for mounting.

[00:23:50] Speaker 02:
It's mountable.

[00:23:52] Speaker 00:
But in this case, isn't the feature, what you're looking at is a feature for docking.

[00:23:57] Speaker 00:
It's really still a port.

[00:24:02] Speaker 00:
And the reason you're going to plug it in, the reason you plug it into that is to charge or to further use the device while it's up there on top of the dock.

[00:24:12] Speaker 00:
So it's a feature for continuing to use the device and is it really a feature for docking?

[00:24:20] Speaker 02:
Well, but it is a feature for mounting, objectively, because it does mount, as Judge Moore noted in the testimony of the Dell people, there is some tension.

[00:24:29] Speaker 02:
It does hold it to the dock.

[00:24:32] Speaker 00:
Does it mount absent the dock?

[00:24:36] Speaker 00:
If you have just that male part, like in a wire, is it going to stand upright on its own?

[00:24:44] Speaker 02:
Well, no more than a conventional picture mounts if there's no nail in the wall.

[00:24:50] Speaker 02:
Yeah, there's a hand-gloved relationship between these two parts, and the employees would have you look at one side and say, well, this is completely separate from the device, and ignore the fact that the device is designed to interact with the dot.

[00:25:02] Speaker 01:
Isn't it true you can place the old-fashioned iPad into the docking station without actually mating the male and female connectors, and it'll sit there held up?

[00:25:18] Speaker 02:
Sure.

[00:25:19] Speaker 02:
And that's what I'm saying, that doesn't change the fact that it has the connector with the mail and email connected.

[00:25:24] Speaker 02:
The fact that the user at that moment in time chooses not to use it doesn't change the fact.

[00:25:29] Speaker 01:
So the mail and email connectors are unnecessary to mount the device into the docking station.

[00:25:38] Speaker 01:
Is that not correct?

[00:25:40] Speaker 02:
Well, in the scenario you presented, there are multiple ways of mounting.

[00:25:44] Speaker 02:
You're right, those two things are not required because there are other

[00:25:48] Speaker 02:
Basically, what's going on here is if you don't use the connector, then you're simply using the form factor to mount it to the tower.

[00:25:57] Speaker 02:
Our contention is either one of those is viable.

[00:26:03] Speaker 02:
The viable way is a feature for mounting both the form factor and the port.

[00:26:08] Speaker 02:
I would suggest that councils verify distinctions with respect to the

[00:26:17] Speaker 02:
The flexibility in the nature of the board and the connector suggests strongly that there is a fact issue as to whether or not that's a feature for mounting or not, not simply something that can be dismissed out of hand.

[00:26:29] Speaker 02:
Campbell also argued basically for subjective intent in a feature, saying that that feature wasn't designed for mounting.

[00:26:38] Speaker 02:
There was a point in this case where the course construction was feature designed for mounting, and that

[00:26:46] Speaker 02:
subsequently was revised to simply feature for mounting to remove the subjective aspect of it.

[00:26:51] Speaker 02:
So it's not a question of whether the manufacturer intended it necessarily, it's whether or not it serves as a feature for mounting that meets an appropriate plane construction.

[00:27:04] Speaker 02:
And with that, if you have no further questions.

[00:27:07] Speaker 03:
Okay.

[00:27:07] Speaker 03:
Thank both councils for their argument.

[00:27:09] Speaker 03:
Casey, take it on the stage.

[00:27:10] Speaker 01:
I have one more question before.

[00:27:12] Speaker 01:
And that is, if I put

[00:27:15] Speaker 01:
two nails in the wall and prop the iPad onto them so that it's hanging on the wall.

[00:27:25] Speaker 01:
Is the bottom lip of that iPad a feature for mounting?

[00:27:29] Speaker 02:
I think, yeah, we have argued that the edit, and it's expressed in the patent, that the thinness, the size, the shape, the ability to do that is a feature for mounting.

[00:27:38] Speaker 01:
So the edge of this brief is a feature for mounting.

[00:27:42] Speaker 01:
I've got it mounted between my fingers.

[00:27:46] Speaker 01:
Are you going to nod?

[00:27:48] Speaker 01:
Yes.

[00:27:48] Speaker 03:
Okay, thank you.

[00:27:49] Speaker 03:
Okay, thank all counsel.

[00:27:50] Speaker 03:
Case is taken under submission.

[00:27:52] Speaker 03:
Next case for today, 2014-1816