[00:00:00] Speaker 04:
Our first case this morning is number 15, 1332, True Position, Inc.

[00:00:05] Speaker 04:
versus Polaris Wireless, Inc.

[00:00:08] Speaker 04:
And before we get started with the actual argument, you probably are familiar with the MCM case, which was decided last week.

[00:00:18] Speaker 04:
And the question is, is there anything left to the constitutional issue here after that decision?

[00:00:27] Speaker 01:
We're not pressing that argument.

[00:00:30] Speaker 01:
Our argument was much more limited than the argument they made, but we're not pressing that argument once the court wants to hear about it.

[00:00:36] Speaker 04:
Okay, so I think we don't need to hear about it, and that means I think we don't need to hear from the PTO as well unless the PTO feels a crying need to say something.

[00:00:47] Speaker 04:
PTO yields back all of its time.

[00:00:51] Speaker 04:
Thank you.

[00:00:53] Speaker 04:
Mr. Vanilla.

[00:00:57] Speaker 01:
Good morning, Your Honors.

[00:01:00] Speaker 01:
With respect to the Zell reference, I think it presents a very interesting legal question for us, and that's how far can we go when we read a reference for anticipation?

[00:01:07] Speaker 01:
This Court's longstanding legal standards say we have expressed disclosures for anticipation and we have inherent disclosures.

[00:01:15] Speaker 01:
Inherency is not an issue here.

[00:01:16] Speaker 01:
It wasn't raised, wasn't relied on.

[00:01:18] Speaker 01:
So the question then is how far can we go when we're reading a reference for an expressed disclosure?

[00:01:24] Speaker 01:
And here, the P tab on page A30 said

[00:01:28] Speaker 01:
that relied on a person of skill and the art would understand and make a connection between two things in Zell, a sought element and a predetermined criteria, neither of which have an express definition, if you will.

[00:01:41] Speaker 01:
So the question is how far can we go in reading this Zell reference?

[00:01:45] Speaker 01:
This court's precedent says for express, it has to be there and you cannot add to a reference based upon another reference or based upon a person's skill and the art.

[00:01:55] Speaker 01:
You can't fill in the gaps.

[00:01:57] Speaker 01:
Like in the DECO case, there was a hose, and you couldn't fill in the gap and say the hose was polymeric.

[00:02:02] Speaker 01:
You can't do that.

[00:02:04] Speaker 01:
And that's where the PTAB, I think, went afoul, because in this case, there's a predetermined criteria and a sought element referenced in ZEP.

[00:02:14] Speaker 01:
Neither of which have a definition.

[00:02:16] Speaker 01:
I think we can all say there's no definition.

[00:02:18] Speaker 01:
They set a predetermined criteria at this or the sought element at that.

[00:02:22] Speaker 01:
So the PTAB tried to make a connection between those two statements and other parts of ZEP.

[00:02:27] Speaker 01:
and there is no definition, and we can't fill in the gaps.

[00:02:30] Speaker 01:
But even if we were to look at Zell and its total and say, well, what is its four corners?

[00:02:36] Speaker 04:
So this is basically a substantial evidence question.

[00:02:40] Speaker 01:
For the most part, yes, your honor.

[00:02:42] Speaker 04:
Well, then why wasn't there substantial evidence to support what the board did?

[00:02:46] Speaker 01:
Because if you look at Zell and its four corners, it starts by saying there's a reconstruction process.

[00:02:51] Speaker 01:
We're pulling all the communications down from the link.

[00:02:55] Speaker 01:
And that reconstruction process is to enable Zell to find these power level measurements so it can do a location.

[00:03:01] Speaker 01:
It doesn't exactly, when it says the reconstruction process is a filtering process, and that's on A944.

[00:03:07] Speaker 01:
On A952, it gives you a little more disclosure of that, and it says you're gonna isolate the signals, you're gonna save the data, and it says there's a sought element, but it doesn't say what it is.

[00:03:18] Speaker 01:
Then we turn back to A963 and A964,

[00:03:22] Speaker 01:
It starts talking about the reconstruction process in more detail.

[00:03:25] Speaker 01:
And it says, what we're looking for here are base station identifiers.

[00:03:29] Speaker 01:
What we're looking for here are frequency information.

[00:03:32] Speaker 01:
964, it says, the time slot, the channel information.

[00:03:35] Speaker 01:
So now if we put this four corners together and say, is there a disclosure of the slot element being a predetermined mobile origination or termination transaction, or MSID, or dial digit trigger, it's not there.

[00:03:48] Speaker 00:
What's actually there is it's...

[00:03:52] Speaker 00:
forced you attribute to the statement that appears even earlier in the Zell reference, right at the beginning, in which Zell talks about filtering said data on the basis of predetermined criteria, which is the very phrase that is in dispute in the patent.

[00:04:09] Speaker 00:
Why doesn't that tell us something about what Zell's filtering is focusing on?

[00:04:14] Speaker 01:
It doesn't tell us what those criteria are.

[00:04:16] Speaker 00:
But it talks about predetermined criteria and then later

[00:04:22] Speaker 00:
it has a number of elements that it describes.

[00:04:25] Speaker 00:
Why isn't this telling us that the filtering in Zelle is the same kind of selection that is being done in the patent?

[00:04:35] Speaker 01:
Okay, so in the communications world, there are lots and lots of different types of messages and lots and lots of different types of data.

[00:04:44] Speaker 01:
So when you say we're reconstructing the communications based on predetermined criteria,

[00:04:49] Speaker 01:
What criteria?

[00:04:50] Speaker 01:
It doesn't say the criteria.

[00:04:51] Speaker 01:
Below that it says, do we have enough base stations?

[00:04:54] Speaker 01:
Is that the criteria on the same page?

[00:04:55] Speaker 01:
It says, do we have enough base stations?

[00:04:57] Speaker 01:
That's the first thing it says.

[00:05:00] Speaker 01:
Then the next thing it says, back when it actually describes its reconstruction process at A963, A964, it says, do we have the base station identifiers?

[00:05:08] Speaker 01:
Because what Zell wants to do is find all these communications, reconstruct them off the link, and then try to find the power level measurements.

[00:05:16] Speaker 01:
So in 964, it says what we're going to do is we're going to look for the base station identifiers, then we're going to look for the time slot, we're going to look for the channel information, because we're trying to pull this and put these communications back together.

[00:05:27] Speaker 01:
In our claim, we're saying we're looking for very specific information.

[00:05:31] Speaker 01:
We're going to pre-define a mobile origination transaction, a very specific type of transaction, or pre-define a mobile termination transaction, a very specific type of transaction.

[00:05:43] Speaker 01:
And we're going to pre-define a trigger that's associated with those transactions.

[00:05:46] Speaker 01:
To say on Zell on 944, he says predetermined criteria, I don't think there's any way to get from that word predetermined criteria to the very specific things that we're talking about.

[00:05:55] Speaker 00:
What do you think Zell means when it talks about filtering according to predetermined criteria?

[00:06:02] Speaker 01:
I think Zell means exactly what he says on 963 and 964 when he says, because he says that's the reconstruction process.

[00:06:09] Speaker 01:
And if you go to 963 to 964, he explains that process.

[00:06:13] Speaker 01:
And he says, you need to have a certain number of base stations

[00:06:16] Speaker 01:
You need to have the channel frequency.

[00:06:18] Speaker 01:
Because what he's talking about is pulling the data.

[00:06:20] Speaker 00:
You have to explain to me why that is a type of filtering based on predetermined criteria.

[00:06:28] Speaker 00:
I'm not making the connection.

[00:06:29] Speaker 00:
So for example, he says, I want to find this notion of predetermined criteria.

[00:06:35] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:06:35] Speaker 01:
So he wants to say, do I have the right base station for this communication?

[00:06:40] Speaker 01:
So the predetermined criteria, there's all these different base stations.

[00:06:43] Speaker 01:
They have certain numbers that are associated with them.

[00:06:45] Speaker 01:
So you say, do I have that base station?

[00:06:47] Speaker 01:
Does my information match?

[00:06:49] Speaker 01:
I'm looking for certain communication by the time slot.

[00:06:53] Speaker 01:
It says, do I have that time slot?

[00:06:55] Speaker 01:
That's a slot within the communication.

[00:06:57] Speaker 01:
Do I have that time slot?

[00:06:58] Speaker 01:
That's on 964, I believe.

[00:07:01] Speaker 01:
And so it says, do I have that frequency?

[00:07:04] Speaker 01:
He's not saying, I'm going to define it as pre-determined criteria.

[00:07:08] Speaker 01:
It's like, I want to look for a mobile origination transaction.

[00:07:13] Speaker 01:
And involved with that, I want to look for

[00:07:15] Speaker 01:
and MSID.

[00:07:17] Speaker 01:
That's not what he says.

[00:07:18] Speaker 04:
So your contention is that the predetermined criteria there don't relate to characteristics of the mobile phone or the transmission?

[00:07:30] Speaker 01:
You don't pre-define the transactions that we're talking about.

[00:07:35] Speaker 01:
The predetermined criteria could be the number of base stations.

[00:07:40] Speaker 01:
the base station identifier.

[00:07:41] Speaker 01:
Those are things Zell references, not the mobile origination or termination transactions as a pre-definition to compare to the monitored data.

[00:07:50] Speaker 00:
Well, to go back again to 942 to 943, we're talking here, Zell, about recording signaling data.

[00:07:59] Speaker 00:
So he's specifically identifying data and then filtering said data, which is signaling data.

[00:08:05] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:08:05] Speaker 00:
So according to predetermined criteria, that sounds like it's focusing on the data.

[00:08:10] Speaker 01:
But the question is more what is the predetermined criteria, right?

[00:08:16] Speaker 01:
In our claim, we're saying we're looking, we're going to pre-define a certain type of transaction.

[00:08:22] Speaker 01:
There's all these different types of transactions, handover, location update, mobile origination, mobile termination, they go on and on and on.

[00:08:28] Speaker 01:
But we're saying look for two specific type in claim 113, mobile origination and mobile termination.

[00:08:32] Speaker 01:
We're going to pre-define that and we give you the GSM standard specifications for that in column 23 of the patent.

[00:08:39] Speaker 01:
And then we say, if you want to look for a specific trigger, and we explain the examples of those, like the CMS ID or the dial digit, and we say, we're going to pre-define those things, and then we're going to compare that to the data.

[00:08:54] Speaker 01:
When Zell says pre-determined criteria, he never says, well, I want to look for those specific transactions that you're talking about and those specific triggers that you're talking about.

[00:09:03] Speaker 01:
Zell doesn't say that.

[00:09:04] Speaker 01:
He says pre-determined criteria.

[00:09:06] Speaker 01:
I'm going to open the data.

[00:09:07] Speaker 01:
So we say, what predetermined criteria are you talking about?

[00:09:11] Speaker 01:
And when you go look through Zell and you read the reconstruction process in detail at 963, 964, he's looking, he doesn't say anything about looking for a mobile origination or termination transaction as a pre-definition, he says I'm going to look for a time slot, I'm going to look for the number of base stations, I'm going to look for a base station identifier.

[00:09:29] Speaker 01:
He is looking for location, right?

[00:09:32] Speaker 01:
Ultimately, Zell is trying to get a location, and he's trying to find, and you say, what's the pre-determined criteria?

[00:09:39] Speaker 01:
What he's actually trying to find is a power level measurement.

[00:09:42] Speaker 01:
And the power level measurements are in a communication signal called a measurement report.

[00:09:48] Speaker 01:
Measurement report is not a mobile origination transaction, and it's not a mobile termination transaction.

[00:09:53] Speaker 01:
Measurement report is not an MSID, and it's not a dialed digit trigger.

[00:09:57] Speaker 01:
So that's ultimately what Zell is looking for.

[00:10:00] Speaker 01:
So when he says, sought

[00:10:02] Speaker 01:
data on page 952 or the predetermined criteria on 944, neither of which have an expressed definition, the more likely thing is he's looking for the power level measurements.

[00:10:13] Speaker 04:
You need to put in no declaration to support what you're saying, right?

[00:10:18] Speaker 01:
No, it was put in the declaration of Dr. Gosman that said the thought element and the predetermined criteria were not defined.

[00:10:25] Speaker 01:
And he said, I believe he said the most likely thing was the power level measurements is his best reading of it.

[00:10:31] Speaker 04:
Well, but I'm not sure that answers my question.

[00:10:33] Speaker 04:
You've been making an argument about Zell.

[00:10:36] Speaker 04:
Is that supported by an expert declaration?

[00:10:40] Speaker 01:
I believe we said it's not disclosed in the sought element and the pre-time period are not disclosed.

[00:10:46] Speaker 01:
Who said?

[00:10:46] Speaker 01:
Who said?

[00:10:47] Speaker 01:
Dr. Gottesman.

[00:10:48] Speaker 01:
Where did he say that?

[00:10:50] Speaker 01:
In his declaration that was submitted in the... But where is it?

[00:10:55] Speaker 01:
I do not have that site on my... I'll clap my head but... No, you're supposed to...

[00:10:59] Speaker 04:
you make arguments supposed to come here and know where they're supported.

[00:11:02] Speaker 01:
But he did say in his declaration that the sawed element and the predetermined criteria are not disclosed and that he was very consistent with that.

[00:11:10] Speaker 01:
In fact, if you look at Dr.

[00:11:39] Speaker 02:
It starts at 9-1-1-7, the actual declaration.

[00:12:17] Speaker 02:
9-9-1-5, Your Honor?

[00:12:19] Speaker 02:
9-1-1-7 is where he begins his actual statement.

[00:12:29] Speaker 02:
That's the only one in the record that's in it.

[00:12:57] Speaker 01:
I believe around 9.145, correct, he says, the data is stored.

[00:13:02] Speaker 01:
One scale in the orbit line does not describe that the salt element is determined.

[00:13:10] Speaker 01:
It doesn't disclose the transactions that we're discussing.

[00:13:16] Speaker 02:
Where does he talk about signal strength?

[00:13:21] Speaker 02:
It seems to be the core of your argument.

[00:13:32] Speaker 01:
Page A9144, paragraph 64, I find Zell's main overall goal is to locate or create a location snapshot using power level and quality measurements.

[00:13:44] Speaker 01:
Zell generally refers to software modeling and statistical modeling as a pre-location phase.

[00:13:49] Speaker 01:
Pre-location uses main parameters, reception levels, the transmission power levels of the base station and mobile stations, and the reception quality of the MS BTS signals.

[00:13:58] Speaker 01:
Zell describes the overall statistical analysis using his data for location,

[00:14:02] Speaker 01:
as well as using the timing advance.

[00:14:04] Speaker 02:
So that's the signal strength?

[00:14:06] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:14:12] Speaker 02:
Geez.

[00:14:14] Speaker 02:
I was a radio teletype net supervisor in the Army.

[00:14:17] Speaker 02:
I didn't read it that way, but go figure.

[00:14:21] Speaker 01:
And power level measurements are essentially go to the signal strength.

[00:14:25] Speaker 01:
And that's what Zell's looking for, these power level measurements.

[00:14:27] Speaker 01:
The power level of the phone

[00:14:30] Speaker 01:
allows you to do location, if you know the power level of them, through statistical analysis.

[00:14:38] Speaker 04:
While you're into your rebuttal, we'll give you two minutes.

[00:14:46] Speaker 03:
Your Honor, this is really a substantial evidence question.

[00:14:49] Speaker 03:
There's adequate substantial evidence to support the Board's decision, particularly on this question of whether or not the filtering

[00:15:00] Speaker 03:
relates to the predetermined criteria and sought elements.

[00:15:09] Speaker 03:
Dr. Bhattacharya's second declaration at K2940, paragraphs 18 through 20.

[00:15:26] Speaker 03:
GSM telecommunication systems are a

[00:15:30] Speaker 03:
a standard type of telecommunication system.

[00:15:34] Speaker 03:
They're manufactured by a number of manufacturers.

[00:15:37] Speaker 03:
They're very, very complex.

[00:15:39] Speaker 03:
The typical system comprises an area the size of Washington, D.C., or a small state.

[00:15:46] Speaker 03:
They comprise many boxes.

[00:15:49] Speaker 03:
You've obviously seen the names of the boxes in the briefs.

[00:15:53] Speaker 03:
Base stations that go by various technical names, mobile switching centers, cell phones,

[00:15:59] Speaker 03:
They go by many names, mobile station and user equipment.

[00:16:04] Speaker 03:
The links, the cables, the cabling between these boxes is standardized by various standard organizations and it is standardized so that carriers such as Verizon or AT&T can mix and match equipment from different vendors, from an Ericsson or a Qualcomm, Huawei, Alcatel, Lucent.

[00:16:29] Speaker 03:
The signaling on the cables is standard.

[00:16:33] Speaker 03:
It's well known.

[00:16:35] Speaker 03:
And that is why the messages are the same in the Zelle reference, in Abadessa, in Havinnis, and in the patented issue.

[00:16:47] Speaker 03:
Well, they have to be in order to work.

[00:16:51] Speaker 03:
They have to be in order to work.

[00:16:53] Speaker 03:
Everybody knows these.

[00:16:54] Speaker 03:
There are documents to explain it.

[00:17:01] Speaker 03:
The problem that when the cellular systems were first developed in the early 80s... Help us with what he's saying.

[00:17:11] Speaker 04:
He's saying that there's a requirement for predetermined criteria in these claims and that's not what Zell is doing.

[00:17:21] Speaker 04:
And yet he concedes that Zell is also trying to find location.

[00:17:27] Speaker 04:
Oh, yes.

[00:17:27] Speaker 04:
Help us understand what's going on here.

[00:17:30] Speaker 03:
Sure.

[00:17:31] Speaker 03:
Sure.

[00:17:32] Speaker 03:
So all of the predetermined criteria are the various criteria that a company might want to do locations on.

[00:17:45] Speaker 03:
So for example, if you're a 911 operator, you might want to see every message that a cell phone originates, that's a mobile origination transaction,

[00:17:59] Speaker 03:
in which the dialed digits are 911.

[00:18:02] Speaker 03:
That's a very common... So how do we know that from Zell?

[00:18:06] Speaker 03:
How do we know that from Zell?

[00:18:09] Speaker 00:
What in Zell tells us that the predetermined criteria are the predetermined criteria that are in the past?

[00:18:21] Speaker 03:
They're in the pet well okay so zelda's that's but we're the exercise here is to say that the cell anticipate and and zealand yes if that's true at least it's necessary for that to be or because why is it true zelda's list zell is that uh... like i believe almost all the references do that there's a laundry list of the twenty or thirty different kinds of messages that can go back and forth on the abyss link and uh...

[00:18:49] Speaker 03:
a manufacturer can use any one of those transactions that it chooses to find a particular transaction.

[00:18:58] Speaker 03:
Where's that long list on the record?

[00:19:00] Speaker 03:
I'm sorry?

[00:19:00] Speaker 02:
Where's that long list?

[00:19:01] Speaker 02:
Give us a page reference.

[00:19:06] Speaker 00:
Are you talking about the service signals on page 948 to 99?

[00:19:11] Speaker 00:
Yes, thank you.

[00:19:12] Speaker 00:
The longer list is the service signals.

[00:19:15] Speaker 00:
It's called the service signals in Zell.

[00:19:20] Speaker 03:
Oh, so the service signals include a number of things.

[00:19:24] Speaker 03:
They include the two that are of interest to the claims are mobile origination transactions.

[00:19:32] Speaker 03:
That's when the cell phone places a call and mobile termination transactions.

[00:19:39] Speaker 03:
It sounds like it would be something having to do with the cell phone ending a call, but it's actually the cell phone receiving a call.

[00:19:46] Speaker 00:
That's all clear in the brief.

[00:19:49] Speaker 00:
in Zell is the connection between those signals and the predetermined criteria used for location.

[00:19:57] Speaker 00:
That's what we're really focused on.

[00:20:00] Speaker 03:
That's the argument.

[00:20:01] Speaker 03:
I would argue that Dr. Bhattacharya's declaration would explain that a person with ordinary skill in the art would.

[00:20:11] Speaker 00:
Why don't you summarize for us what it is that Dr. Bhattacharya says that is pertinent to that question?

[00:20:19] Speaker 03:
should show us where it says yes at eight two nine four zero which volume is this?

[00:20:26] Speaker 03:
which volume?

[00:20:28] Speaker 03:
volume one?

[00:20:30] Speaker 03:
the volume of the Joint Appendix?

[00:20:32] Speaker 03:
yeah I'm sorry I don't know volume two I guess

[00:21:02] Speaker 04:
Where does he say this?

[00:21:09] Speaker 04:
I mean, you know how both of you, this is a substantial evidence case.

[00:21:13] Speaker 04:
Don't you think we're going to ask you questions about where the evidence is?

[00:21:17] Speaker 03:
Is it in paragraph 20?

[00:21:20] Speaker 03:
Yes, I listed 20, 18 through 20.

[00:21:24] Speaker 03:
Zell discusses that the data on the ABIS link complies with industry standards.

[00:21:28] Speaker 03:
a person of ordinary skill, who Dr. Gottesman says has ordinary programming skills, understands that filtering based on predetermined criteria means setting the predetermined criteria for filtering the data set.

[00:21:41] Speaker 03:
So you'd look for whatever it is you wanted to look.

[00:21:44] Speaker 03:
You'd look for the mobile origination transactions.

[00:21:46] Speaker 03:
You'd look for the, if you wanted incoming calls, you'd look for the mobile termination transactions based on caller ID.

[00:22:00] Speaker 03:
A person of ordinary skill would understand that once they had access to those messages, they could use the messages in any way they wanted.

[00:22:22] Speaker 04:
Well, here he says that filtering involves

[00:22:28] Speaker 04:
setting predetermined criteria.

[00:22:30] Speaker 04:
I don't know, is the contention here that the predetermined criteria in Zelle in the patent are different?

[00:22:41] Speaker 03:
The predetermined criteria or the sought signals are a part of the service signals, are those service signals that you would want in any particular query.

[00:22:51] Speaker 04:
And Zelle is looking for them and the 299 patent is looking for them?

[00:22:55] Speaker 04:
Yes.

[00:22:58] Speaker 02:
My picture of this is sort of a Venn diagram, that is, Zell has everything including those, but there's more.

[00:23:07] Speaker 03:
That is more than the claims to write.

[00:23:10] Speaker 03:
Zell teaches a superset of the messages recited in the claim.

[00:23:19] Speaker 03:
If there are no further questions, I'll yield my time.

[00:23:23] Speaker 03:
Okay, thank you.

[00:23:31] Speaker 01:
I have a couple of points.

[00:23:32] Speaker 01:
Paragraph 20 on 8-29-40 has no site to Zell that I just relied on from the declaration of Dr. Bachacaria.

[00:23:42] Speaker 01:
There's no actual site to Zell in that paragraph.

[00:23:45] Speaker 01:
It's just pretty much a statement.

[00:23:48] Speaker 02:
Paragraph 20?

[00:23:48] Speaker 02:
What's the first word in paragraph 20?

[00:23:50] Speaker 01:
Zell discusses the date on the Avis link.

[00:23:52] Speaker 01:
I'm sorry?

[00:23:53] Speaker 02:
You say there's no actual site to Zell?

[00:23:55] Speaker 02:
That's Zell?

[00:23:56] Speaker 01:
No, it is a reference to Zell.

[00:23:58] Speaker 01:
Zell discusses the date on the Avis link complies with the industry standards.

[00:24:01] Speaker 01:
Well, that's true.

[00:24:03] Speaker 01:
A person of ordinary skill, who Dr. Gosman says has programming skills, understands that filtering based on predetermined criteria means setting predetermined criteria for filtering the data set based on predetermined criteria.

[00:24:15] Speaker 01:
And you say that's not true.

[00:24:17] Speaker 01:
Well, I'm saying it doesn't define, that paragraph doesn't say anything about defining it specifically as we say, mobile origination.

[00:24:22] Speaker 01:
This is an expert, right?

[00:24:23] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:24:24] Speaker 02:
An expert's entitled to make an expert opinion, right?

[00:24:28] Speaker 02:
Absolutely.

[00:24:29] Speaker 04:
But he's not saying, he doesn't say- What about paragraph 18?

[00:24:37] Speaker 01:
Which is the basis for- It describes filtering this data includes setting the predetermined criteria.

[00:24:42] Speaker 01:
It consists of recording signaling data at the interface.

[00:24:46] Speaker 01:
It's recording signaling data at the interface.

[00:24:48] Speaker 01:
It doesn't say, it says filtering based on predetermined criteria.

[00:24:52] Speaker 01:
Paragraph 18 doesn't say anything about defining that predetermined criteria on the specific criteria that we said.

[00:24:58] Speaker 01:
And in Zell itself,

[00:24:59] Speaker 01:
On A963, I believe it is, it says the missing information, 962, it says, this is determining the reconstruction process with the predetermined criteria.

[00:25:11] Speaker 01:
It says the missing information is the following, correspondence between different identifiers designating same radio frequency, grouping together of radio frequencies that are part of the same BTS, and correspondence between the identifier, the base station, the frequencies.

[00:25:26] Speaker 01:
Those are different criteria.

[00:25:27] Speaker 00:
What do you say about the next two paragraphs of Dr. Bhattacharya's declaration 21 and 22, specifically 21 in which he characterizes Zell as detecting triggers specific to mobile origination and termination transactions?

[00:25:43] Speaker 00:
I'm sorry, do you have that page around there?

[00:25:45] Speaker 00:
Yes, that's 2941.

[00:25:46] Speaker 00:
It's the next page after the one that you were reading from.

[00:26:00] Speaker 01:
He does say to close detecting triggers, but he doesn't cite to Zell.

[00:26:04] Speaker 01:
So this is where you're adding to a disclosure.

[00:26:05] Speaker 00:
Well, there's a citation to Zell at the end of paragraph 21.

[00:26:09] Speaker 01:
He's listing that laundry list of service signals that you referred to earlier.

[00:26:13] Speaker 01:
That laundry list?

[00:26:15] Speaker 01:
It's just a list of signals on the ABUS link.

[00:26:17] Speaker 01:
He said, here's all the stuff on the ABUS link.

[00:26:19] Speaker 01:
And then later they say, we're going to reconstruct the signals and we're going to look for a solid element of predetermined criteria.

[00:26:24] Speaker 01:
It's not saying we're looking for this one or that one or this one or this specific thing within all that data.

[00:26:30] Speaker 02:
That's that Venn diagram thing I said before.

[00:26:33] Speaker 02:
There's a big one, and it overlaps in some instances with the other path.

[00:26:38] Speaker 01:
No, I don't see it that way, Your Honor, because there's pulling the data in from the ABIS link.

[00:26:43] Speaker 01:
I have data now.

[00:26:44] Speaker 01:
The question is, electronically, we have the data.

[00:26:46] Speaker 01:
What is it I'm looking for within that data?

[00:26:48] Speaker 01:
Am I looking for this transaction with this trigger to cause a location, or am I looking for something else?

[00:26:54] Speaker 01:
And what Zell says in missing information, he's looking for something else.

[00:26:57] Speaker 01:
He's pre-defining something else.

[00:26:59] Speaker 01:
He's not pre-defining a transaction or a trigger and looking for those things as we claimed it.

[00:27:06] Speaker 04:
Okay.

[00:27:06] Speaker 04:
Thank you, Mr. Bonilla.

[00:27:08] Speaker 04:
I thank both counsels.

[00:27:09] Speaker 04:
The case is submitted, and that brings us to the next case, which is 15-1643, again, true position, Inc.

[00:27:17] Speaker 04:
versus Polaris Wireless.

[00:27:19] Speaker 04:
Mr. Bonilla.