[00:00:00] Speaker 00:
So you ready to proceed?

[00:00:01] Speaker 00:
We are, Your Honor.

[00:00:02] Speaker 00:
Go ahead.

[00:00:08] Speaker 04:
Mr. Groschinsky?

[00:00:09] Speaker 04:
Yes.

[00:00:10] Speaker 04:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:00:12] Speaker 04:
May it please the court, Tim Groschinsky, on behalf of the Appellate Virginia Innovation Sciences.

[00:00:19] Speaker 04:
The district court's summary judgment ruling in this matter on infringement was based entirely on an improper construction of the term display format.

[00:00:29] Speaker 04:
There's absolutely no support in the patents in suit for the district court's construction.

[00:00:34] Speaker 04:
There's no support in the file histories.

[00:00:36] Speaker 04:
Throughout the entire intrinsic evidence at issue in this case, there's no support for that construction.

[00:00:42] Speaker 04:
Samsung hasn't identified any support from the intrinsic evidence in support.

[00:00:47] Speaker 04:
And the district court didn't identify any in its order.

[00:00:51] Speaker 04:
Setting that aside, the same construction that the district court adopted for display format

[00:00:56] Speaker 04:
It doesn't just exclude the preferred embodiment that's in the patent suit.

[00:01:01] Speaker 04:
It excludes every single embodiment that's present in the patent suit.

[00:01:05] Speaker 01:
Because each of the identified display formats, and not just HDMI, but the others as well, do require some processing once the signal has entered the display device processing that could be described with the district court's words of deconstruction and reassembly.

[00:01:25] Speaker 01:
That's correct.

[00:01:25] Speaker 01:
That's the point.

[00:01:26] Speaker 02:
That's correct.

[00:01:26] Speaker 02:
Do you equate the phrase deconstruction and reassembly with further processing?

[00:01:32] Speaker 04:
I do.

[00:01:34] Speaker 02:
Is that the way the district court used it?

[00:01:37] Speaker 04:
I think that when you are, let me make sure I fully understand, when you are doing deconstruction and reassembly, as I understand that, what I understand that to mean from the district court, I think that is going to be further processing that's done at the alternative display.

[00:01:50] Speaker 04:
I don't think that the terms deconstruction and reassembly, first of all, those terms don't appear anywhere in the intrinsic evidence.

[00:01:56] Speaker 04:
I don't think that those are terms of art in this technological space.

[00:02:02] Speaker 04:
The district court adopted those terms, and I understand those to mean essentially you have a situation where you have some form of decoding.

[00:02:10] Speaker 04:
I'm hesitant to use that word because I think that is a term of art, but some form of decoding of an incoming video signal, and then you're going to have a decoded signal at that point or a deconstructed signal.

[00:02:21] Speaker 04:
and then it's going to be either reassembled or re-encoded into a different signaling format.

[00:02:27] Speaker 04:
And the district court's order, and I think we're all on the same page, but the construction was not just a format that requires decoding, but he goes on and he says, but deconstruction and reassembly after it's received by the alternative display, that can't be a display format.

[00:02:44] Speaker 04:
And so we have a negative construction we're adopting where we're carving out

[00:02:49] Speaker 04:
certain formats, we're saying these can't be display formats.

[00:02:53] Speaker 04:
And using HDMI as an example, because that's the exemplar display format that the district court adopted, and that's throughout the preferred embodiment and the patents in suit.

[00:03:03] Speaker 04:
When HDMI is received by an alternative display, there are absolutely, before that can be displayed on a TV, there has to be deconstruction and reassembly of that signal.

[00:03:13] Speaker 04:
What happens is it gets received by the TV

[00:03:16] Speaker 04:
And then you have HGMI.

[00:03:18] Speaker 04:
There's three parallel data channels coming across in a clock channel.

[00:03:22] Speaker 04:
And then those are deconstructed into raw pixels or raw bits.

[00:03:27] Speaker 04:
And then those raw pixels and bits are then reassembled into what's known as low voltage differential signaling, which is ultimately what a television would display.

[00:03:37] Speaker 04:
I'm using an LCD television as an example.

[00:03:40] Speaker 04:
And so in that context, in the preferred embodiment in the Pattinson suit, you have deconstruction and reassembly.

[00:03:47] Speaker 04:
And what the district court was focusing on is he's saying, OK, MHL is coming in, and that's a serial format.

[00:03:54] Speaker 04:
And so we have one piece of data after another in a serial fashion.

[00:03:57] Speaker 04:
There's only one line.

[00:03:58] Speaker 04:
You want to think of it that way.

[00:04:00] Speaker 04:
When you look at HGMI, setting aside the clock channel, you have three data lines coming in instead of one.

[00:04:06] Speaker 04:
And so we refer to that as parallel.

[00:04:08] Speaker 04:
And they both use TMDS encoding.

[00:04:10] Speaker 04:
You can almost think of it as HGMI parallel and HGMI serial is the two.

[00:04:15] Speaker 04:
But even in the parallel format, your honors, of HDMI, when you have the three lines, take one of those data lines and isolate it.

[00:04:23] Speaker 04:
Disregard the other two for a second.

[00:04:25] Speaker 04:
The data that's coming across in that one line is coming across in a serial fashion.

[00:04:30] Speaker 04:
You have packet after packet after packet after packet that are all coming across serially.

[00:04:35] Speaker 04:
And so when a single data line gets received from HDMI, that serial data line has to be deconstructed.

[00:04:43] Speaker 04:
That's the only way you can get

[00:04:45] Speaker 04:
into a raw data format, and then that serial data line that's not deconstructed has to be rearranged or reassembled before it can be displayed.

[00:04:55] Speaker 04:
The point I'm trying to make is that in HDMI, which we all agree is an exemplar display format in patents and suit, if you adopt the district court's construction, you exclude that.

[00:05:06] Speaker 01:
So let's just assume, at least for purposes of this question,

[00:05:12] Speaker 01:
that the deconstruction reassembly requirement is not right.

[00:05:19] Speaker 01:
What is the correct interpretation of this quite broad term display format?

[00:05:28] Speaker 04:
VIS, that's referring to Genevasion's VIS, our position on that, Your Honor, is that it should be a decompressed, encoded video signal.

[00:05:38] Speaker 01:
Where does decompressed and encoded come from?

[00:05:42] Speaker 01:
Why does the language and the specification not cover essentially any signal that any display device out there might use with whatever equipment it needs in order to translate that signal into a series of pixel lightings on the screen?

[00:06:12] Speaker 04:
I actually don't agree with you with respect to that being the plain, ordinary meaning of the term display format.

[00:06:19] Speaker 04:
I think that that's an accurate description of the plain, ordinary meaning of the term.

[00:06:23] Speaker 04:
And this court's precedent tells us there's only two instances to deviate from that, lexicography or disclaimer.

[00:06:29] Speaker 04:
Now, one of the issues that Samsung has raised is they're saying that we have a new construction out here on appeal and this is a shifting sands type situation.

[00:06:37] Speaker 04:
It's not.

[00:06:39] Speaker 04:
What happened was early on in this case.

[00:06:43] Speaker 01:
I mean, unless this is really relevant, I must say I could not follow all of the debate about who said what first.

[00:06:52] Speaker 01:
So I'm really interested in your telling me why, putting aside who said what first and when, what the correct construction is.

[00:07:02] Speaker 04:
A decompressed encoded video signal that is different from the mobile terminal signal originally received.

[00:07:08] Speaker 04:
That is the verbatim proposal that is set forth by VIS.

[00:07:12] Speaker 04:
And the basis for that in the intrinsic evidence is a statement that was made three times during the prosecution history of the 492 pad that Samsung has argued was a disclaiming statement.

[00:07:25] Speaker 04:
And the district court in its opinion agreed and found that VIS engaged in disclaimer by making the statement.

[00:07:32] Speaker 04:
And the statement is, applicants claimed invention

[00:07:36] Speaker 04:
deals not only with mere decoding of a compressed video signal.

[00:07:41] Speaker 04:
And I'm going to pause for a second.

[00:07:42] Speaker 04:
That's where I get decompression from.

[00:07:44] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:07:45] Speaker 01:
My question, I guess, is this does not seem to be a statement specifically about the language display format.

[00:07:59] Speaker 01:
It seems to be a statement about either the invention

[00:08:03] Speaker 01:
or even claims as a whole, which have a lot more words in them than just display format, including converting and other things.

[00:08:13] Speaker 01:
Where does one get, how does one get from this to a definition of display format putting aside the other claim language that involves more than, that involves decompression and something else?

[00:08:29] Speaker 04:
The issue, for example,

[00:08:32] Speaker 04:
If you took what you had originally stated as display format, there's any format that could be displayed by an alternative display.

[00:08:38] Speaker 04:
I know I'm paraphrasing what you stated.

[00:08:40] Speaker 04:
That would, in my opinion, cover a compressed format, so MPEG-2 or MPEG-4, for example.

[00:08:47] Speaker 04:
This statement from the prosecution history, as well as throughout the patents in suit, clearly disclaim and state that the outgoing video signal from a mobile terminal must be in a decompressed format.

[00:09:01] Speaker 04:
And that was our position in this case very early on, is that a display format must be a decompressed signal format.

[00:09:09] Speaker 02:
Right, but you're saying the claim, we should read the claim as saying taking a video signal at the mobile phone that's in a compressed format and it's converted into a decompressed format, right?

[00:09:25] Speaker 02:
That's correct, Your Honor.

[00:09:26] Speaker 02:
But it doesn't say decompressed format in the claim, it says a display format.

[00:09:30] Speaker 02:
that's appropriate for display on the alternative display terminal.

[00:09:34] Speaker 04:
That's correct.

[00:09:36] Speaker 02:
So, when we go back to your spec, we see examples of what are display formats.

[00:09:43] Speaker 02:
There's S-Video, there's RGBS for analog TVs, there's DVI and HDMI and other things for digital TVs.

[00:09:54] Speaker 02:
And so the whole point there is to demonstrate that what we're looking at are

[00:10:01] Speaker 02:
This whole interface module is designed to format the signal received at the mobile phone so that it's ready for use at the alternative display, at the TV.

[00:10:15] Speaker 02:
If that TV is digital, then that HDMI or DVR is one of those.

[00:10:20] Speaker 02:
If it's an analog TV, then we're doing RGBs or something else.

[00:10:26] Speaker 02:
But we're not just plainly sending over any

[00:10:30] Speaker 02:
decompressed data.

[00:10:32] Speaker 02:
You have to get it into a format that is ready for use for the TV.

[00:10:39] Speaker 04:
I agree with the majority, which is that I'm hesitant to agree with the ready for use language just because that appears to have gotten me into some trouble in this case so far.

[00:10:47] Speaker 04:
And what I mean by that is we used ready for use early on in the briefing in the context of referring to decompression.

[00:10:54] Speaker 04:
And we were analogizing that from a compression to decompression, saying if it's decompressed, it's ready for use.

[00:11:00] Speaker 04:
meaning you don't have to decompress it at the alternative display.

[00:11:03] Speaker 04:
And I think that that's been twisted.

[00:11:05] Speaker 04:
I know it has up to this point.

[00:11:08] Speaker 04:
Now, that just doesn't mean it's decompressed.

[00:11:09] Speaker 04:
That means that nothing has to happen at the alternative display.

[00:11:12] Speaker 04:
It's just ready to go.

[00:11:13] Speaker 04:
If what we're talking about here is it's ready for use, meaning it's decompressed or it can be used, I would agree with that.

[00:11:20] Speaker 02:
Well, ready for use as in any TV in America could handle whatever is being outputted from this interface module.

[00:11:29] Speaker 02:
Or there's at least one TV in America that can handle whatever is being outputted from this interface module.

[00:11:38] Speaker 02:
I agree with that.

[00:11:39] Speaker 02:
So if that interface module is outputting HDMI, yes, we know there are several TVs that can handle that.

[00:11:48] Speaker 04:
I would agree with that.

[00:11:49] Speaker 04:
And in the same token, there are several monitors and televisions that can handle MHL, receiving an MHL signal and then doing some processing and displaying it.

[00:11:59] Speaker 04:
With respect to the decompression component though, and that was adopted by the district court, and you all may or may not agree with that, but I believe it was correct to find that a display format, or what's output at least, must be a decompressed display format.

[00:12:13] Speaker 04:
And I think that the prosecution history tells us that, even if we're going to assume that this isn't, this statement isn't necessarily defining display format, I do think that it's clearly stating that what leaves the television, or I'm sorry, the mobile terminal,

[00:12:26] Speaker 04:
must be in a decompressed format.

[00:12:28] Speaker 04:
Every exemplar display format listed, those are all decompressed.

[00:12:32] Speaker 04:
I grant you that it says exemplary, but they're all decompressed formats.

[00:12:36] Speaker 00:
Just so you're aware, you're into the rebuttal time.

[00:12:40] Speaker 04:
And so just to simply end, with respect to it, that's the basis for our proposal.

[00:12:46] Speaker 04:
And there is no support for the district court's construction.

[00:12:49] Speaker 04:
And it would exclude all embodiments if it was adopted.

[00:12:59] Speaker 03:
May it please the court, George Reilly, I represent the appellee and defendant, Sam Song.

[00:13:05] Speaker 03:
The district court's construction is clearly correct and supported by the intrinsic evidence.

[00:13:11] Speaker 01:
We're talking about display format now or converted signal?

[00:13:15] Speaker 01:
There are two constructions that are kind of in play here, right?

[00:13:17] Speaker 03:
That is correct, and they operate together.

[00:13:19] Speaker 03:
Display format, I'd like to turn to that.

[00:13:24] Speaker 03:
reason there was a clear and unambiguous disavowal, which is critical and I believe goes to some of the points that Judge Chen were making, is that they had to, in prosecution, distinguish their alleged invention against a prior art, several prior art inventions, Lee, Hynonen, and others.

[00:13:42] Speaker 03:
And what those inventions did, some of them were like set-top boxes, where they took a compressed video stream, they decompressed it,

[00:13:51] Speaker 03:
Then they decoded it and processed it the way a typical video stream is processed.

[00:13:56] Speaker 03:
They call it conventional processing, and it produced video on an external display.

[00:14:02] Speaker 03:
In order to overcome a rejection based on that priority, they said, no, no, no, our invention is more than mere decompression and conventional processing.

[00:14:14] Speaker 03:
Our invention takes a format that is suitable for the mobile device.

[00:14:21] Speaker 03:
and converts it into a different display format.

[00:14:26] Speaker 03:
And so the concept of display format comes to the fro here, because it's at the very essence of what they've claimed.

[00:14:36] Speaker 03:
And what they do in the four claims at issue, which is important in understanding why Judge Davis focused on the handset, is that some of their claims would read where the conversion occurs in the television set itself.

[00:14:50] Speaker 03:
Some of their claims would read where there's an external device, like a set-top box.

[00:14:54] Speaker 03:
So you have the phone, set-top box, TV.

[00:14:58] Speaker 03:
And some would read where you have components that do the conversion in different places, which is sort of what they're trying to do now.

[00:15:04] Speaker 03:
But the claims that they've asserted, and there's no dispute about this, the claims they've asserted, the entire conversion to display format occurs on the mobile device.

[00:15:15] Speaker 01:
All right, so I'm sorry.

[00:15:16] Speaker 01:
So what's a display format?

[00:15:18] Speaker 03:
A display format is a decompressed format that is ready to use.

[00:15:23] Speaker 01:
I guess my difficulty is I don't know what this phrase ready to use means.

[00:15:29] Speaker 03:
We can look to the prosecution history.

[00:15:30] Speaker 01:
Ready to use means that... No processing inside the display box.

[00:15:35] Speaker 03:
The conventional processing that's required.

[00:15:37] Speaker 03:
Conventional.

[00:15:38] Speaker 03:
That's the term that the patent used.

[00:15:40] Speaker 03:
Conventional processing.

[00:15:42] Speaker 02:
and your honor, this is... I didn't see anywhere in the prosecution history that said when we use the term display format, we are talking about a converted video signal that's ready for use by the alternative display in which there's mere de minimis conventional processing that happens at the tail end that any alternative display terminal would use.

[00:16:05] Speaker 02:
It doesn't say it like that.

[00:16:07] Speaker 03:
It doesn't say it like that, your honor.

[00:16:08] Speaker 03:
Correct.

[00:16:09] Speaker 02:
But at 5300...

[00:16:11] Speaker 02:
clean enough that leads me to that conclusion.

[00:16:14] Speaker 03:
I believe it is clean enough to lead to that conclusion, and it's at 5304 where they're distinguishing the combination of Lee and Hynonen, where they're saying our invention is not merely decoding and conventional processing to take a compressed video stream and display it on an external device.

[00:16:31] Speaker 03:
Ours is conversion.

[00:16:33] Speaker 03:
It decompresses and converts.

[00:16:35] Speaker 03:
Decompresses and converts.

[00:16:37] Speaker 02:
Well decompresses is part of the conversion, isn't it?

[00:16:40] Speaker 03:
Actually, the claims themselves and the specification speak of decompression as a separate step.

[00:16:48] Speaker 03:
If you look at figures three and figures four, they actually have a separate step where they call decoding or decompression, and then they have the conversion step, as Your Honor was referring to converting it, say, into an analog format or converting it into a digital format like 1394 or DVI or in this case, HDMI.

[00:17:07] Speaker 02:
But what the district would

[00:17:08] Speaker 02:
here did is say something about how deconstruction and reassembly, you can't do that to a display format.

[00:17:19] Speaker 03:
And the logic for that, your honor, follows from the same logic that applies to decompression.

[00:17:25] Speaker 03:
If we think about what happens in compression, we have an algorithm that looks at our lines of ones and zeros and says, well, insert a code word for a certain series of zeros.

[00:17:35] Speaker 03:
So we compacted it.

[00:17:36] Speaker 03:
We compressed the bitstream.

[00:17:38] Speaker 03:
Then when we decode it or decompress it.

[00:17:41] Speaker 02:
Let me just tell you what my problem is right now.

[00:17:43] Speaker 02:
I mean, what we have when you get to HDMI, there is a certain amount of processing going on in a conventional TV transmission.

[00:17:54] Speaker 02:
And then what we have here going from MHL to HDMI, there's some processing going on there, clearly.

[00:18:02] Speaker 02:
When we go from HDMI to actually seeing the pixels lighting up,

[00:18:06] Speaker 02:
There's yet some additional processing.

[00:18:09] Speaker 02:
And so there's processing going on everywhere.

[00:18:13] Speaker 02:
And it's not so, I'm not so convinced that the district court's construction cleanly cleaves away what is good processing from impermissible processing in terms of understanding how this claim works.

[00:18:28] Speaker 02:
Do you see my concern?

[00:18:29] Speaker 03:
I do, your honor.

[00:18:30] Speaker 03:
And I think that that concern is answered in the court's very detailed discussion of decompression.

[00:18:36] Speaker 03:
If you agree that decompression is outside of this, that they've disavowed that.

[00:18:42] Speaker 01:
What happens in decompression?

[00:18:43] Speaker 01:
I'm sorry, what do you mean by disavowed decompression?

[00:18:45] Speaker 01:
I'm sorry.

[00:18:46] Speaker 03:
Their conversion to a display format is more than mere decompression.

[00:18:52] Speaker 01:
Are we now switching to the different term converted signal from display format?

[00:18:57] Speaker 03:
No, it's display format, but to get to the display format you have to take a

[00:19:01] Speaker 03:
initial signal and convert it to a display format.

[00:19:04] Speaker 01:
Part of what I've had difficulty here with is whether there are two separate claim constructions at issue or what.

[00:19:14] Speaker 01:
The district court clearly thought in the invalidity order that some claims that referred to compression meant one thing and some claims that didn't refer to compression meant another thing.

[00:19:30] Speaker 01:
What we have is a claim construction of display format and a separate, extremely broad claim construction of converted signal, which is the validity issue.

[00:19:43] Speaker 01:
And they proposed the very broad construction, but display format, you said they agreed that it did not cover what?

[00:19:52] Speaker 03:
A signal which is merely decompressed.

[00:19:56] Speaker 03:
And that is why in their own proposed construction, they say it's a decompressed signal that is encoded and different than the original signal.

[00:20:05] Speaker 01:
So a display format has to be decompressed, but also is limited in an additional way.

[00:20:12] Speaker 03:
Correct.

[00:20:13] Speaker 03:
It has to be ready to be used as we discussed earlier.

[00:20:16] Speaker 01:
I'm sorry for the detour.

[00:20:19] Speaker 00:
When the district court says at one point,

[00:20:25] Speaker 00:
that converted video signal comprises display format for the alternative displays terminal.

[00:20:36] Speaker 00:
It says an uncompressed format must occur prior to the transmission.

[00:20:42] Speaker 03:
In all of the asserted claims, correct.

[00:20:44] Speaker 00:
Okay.

[00:20:45] Speaker 00:
But when it's discussing invalidity and the anticipation, it says decompression is not necessary.

[00:20:52] Speaker 00:
prior transmission to the alternative display format.

[00:20:56] Speaker 00:
Why?

[00:20:57] Speaker 03:
And I'm glad you asked that question, Your Honor.

[00:21:01] Speaker 03:
He is speaking of claim 21 of the 268 patent.

[00:21:05] Speaker 03:
Claim 21 is indifferent about where the actual decompression occurs.

[00:21:11] Speaker 03:
Again, in the specification, there are embodiments where part of it occurs in the mobile device, part of it occurs in the television set.

[00:21:19] Speaker 03:
So he's talking about, Judge Davis is talking about claim 21, which he held invalid.

[00:21:25] Speaker 03:
That is not one of the assertive claims.

[00:21:27] Speaker 03:
27 is an assertive claim, which does require decompression prior to transmission.

[00:21:33] Speaker 02:
So that is the difference.

[00:21:34] Speaker 02:
Is the term converted signal, in your mind, talking about the same thing as the display format?

[00:21:43] Speaker 03:
No, Your Honor.

[00:21:44] Speaker 03:
In the claim construction that was adopted, we didn't agree with this claim construction.

[00:21:47] Speaker 03:
Convert simply means a change.

[00:21:50] Speaker 02:
Right, but I'm saying as this claim in the 492 as well as the 711, it's referencing a converted signal, it's referencing a display format.

[00:22:01] Speaker 02:
The converted signal is the outputted signal.

[00:22:06] Speaker 02:
That is correct.

[00:22:07] Speaker 02:
And the outputted signal is the display format.

[00:22:10] Speaker 03:
Yes, at the end of the claim when it talks about transmitting the converted signal.

[00:22:14] Speaker 02:
That's why I'm asking you, as the claim

[00:22:18] Speaker 02:
is written, why isn't the converted signal the same thing as whatever the thing is that's the display format?

[00:22:26] Speaker 03:
It is at that part of the claim, because the antecedent to converted signal is the creation of the display format, which is different from the initial signal.

[00:22:35] Speaker 03:
So you've got a signal, you convert it into a display format, and then you transmit the converted signal.

[00:22:42] Speaker 03:
I agree completely.

[00:22:43] Speaker 03:
At that point, the converted signal is the display format.

[00:22:46] Speaker 02:
So if it's the same thing, and then

[00:22:48] Speaker 02:
We have an interpretation of one of those two things to be a changed signal.

[00:22:55] Speaker 02:
And then we have an interpretation of the other thing, i.e.

[00:22:58] Speaker 02:
the display format, as some signal that cannot be further processed.

[00:23:08] Speaker 03:
No, at the point when you're transmitting it, you have an anesthesia, which is the display format.

[00:23:14] Speaker 03:
So the converted signal, when you're transmitting it,

[00:23:17] Speaker 03:
to the auxiliary or external device is now in a display format.

[00:23:22] Speaker 03:
And the reason that this is important gets to your question, Judge Chen, about external displays.

[00:23:28] Speaker 03:
In this patent, they say, yeah, you could put the conversion, the reassembly, in the television set.

[00:23:35] Speaker 03:
But that would be a burden on TV manufacturers.

[00:23:38] Speaker 03:
If you put the conversion to the display format in the handset, then it would work with a standard HDMI TV.

[00:23:47] Speaker 03:
Because the conversion, regardless of what the bit stream is, it's MPEG, it's whatever the bit stream is, this handheld computer will now convert it into a bit stream that can go into a conventional television.

[00:24:01] Speaker 03:
And in the original case in this, and in fact if you look at the judgment, they dismissed a product called the droid charge.

[00:24:09] Speaker 03:
in the droid charge, actually.

[00:24:11] Speaker 03:
The what charge?

[00:24:11] Speaker 03:
Droid.

[00:24:12] Speaker 03:
Droid.

[00:24:12] Speaker 03:
Android.

[00:24:13] Speaker 01:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:13] Speaker 03:
They dismissed the droid charge, but the droid charge did exactly what you're referring to.

[00:24:18] Speaker 03:
It outputted an HDMI signal, a display format.

[00:24:24] Speaker 03:
But there were very, very few sales of that.

[00:24:26] Speaker 01:
I'm sorry, go ahead.

[00:24:28] Speaker 01:
If suddenly there were 15 million Samsung TVs out there that accepted MHL

[00:24:39] Speaker 01:
formatted signals for display.

[00:24:44] Speaker 01:
Does that change whether an MHL signal is in a display format if that's what comes out of the Galaxy device?

[00:24:55] Speaker 03:
No, it depends on how that MHL is processed, whether it's natively processed or whether it has to take the MHL and reassemble it, deconstruct it, reassemble it into something else.

[00:25:07] Speaker 01:
But then

[00:25:09] Speaker 01:
then aren't we just back to this thing which I think we keep trying to focus on.

[00:25:15] Speaker 01:
If 50 million televisions out there conventionally, which if it's 50 million that's conventional in some sense, do that processing, why is that processing different from the processing currently done on 50 million HDMI accepting

[00:25:33] Speaker 03:
Because it's a difference between my hearing French and understanding it, my hearing French and having to write it down and then translate it into English.

[00:25:41] Speaker 03:
And that's what would happen today.

[00:25:43] Speaker 03:
And the reason that this is important, in the decompression discussion, Judge Davis said, think of the Palin example.

[00:25:50] Speaker 03:
There was a Bluetooth connection.

[00:25:53] Speaker 03:
So you had to take the signal, package it up, compress it as Bluetooth, and then transmit it to the external display.

[00:26:00] Speaker 03:
That's the way it worked.

[00:26:01] Speaker 03:
Well, that's priority.

[00:26:02] Speaker 03:
They have to avoid that.

[00:26:03] Speaker 03:
So the way they avoid that is to say, no, no, no, in compression, you have to take that signal and unpack it, rearrange it, reconstruct it, and now it's ready for display.

[00:26:15] Speaker 03:
That's the way they distinguish a compressed format from a decompressed format.

[00:26:20] Speaker 03:
And then it follows that as to Bluetooth, so to MHL, it's a transmit format.

[00:26:28] Speaker 03:
It's a transmission format that has to be unpacked and then reassembled.

[00:26:33] Speaker 03:
just as a compressed signal has to be unpacked and reassembled.

[00:26:36] Speaker 01:
And so what currently goes on inside a Samsung-displayed television that has sockets only for HDMI, but to get the four signals coming in onto the screen, what's going on in there, and why is that not deconstruction and reassembly?

[00:27:02] Speaker 03:
Because today what you have to do is to buy a separate converter, an adapter, put it on your phone, and then that adapter will convert it into HDMI, which the TV can process.

[00:27:14] Speaker 01:
Maybe I was unclear on the question.

[00:27:16] Speaker 01:
Forget about MHL.

[00:27:18] Speaker 01:
I want to know if your Galaxy device actually had an HDMI set of connectors for them or something.

[00:27:27] Speaker 01:
And that's going into the

[00:27:32] Speaker 01:
the Samsung TV.

[00:27:34] Speaker 01:
MHL is nowhere in the picture.

[00:27:36] Speaker 01:
Something is going to be happening inside that Samsung television with the HDMI signal to make the pixels light up correctly.

[00:27:46] Speaker 01:
What is that process and why is it not deconstruction and reassembly?

[00:27:53] Speaker 03:
What that process is, and to use an actual example, the Droid Charge, which was a phone they accused of dismissing, it outputs HDMI.

[00:28:01] Speaker 03:
The television can receive HDMI.

[00:28:04] Speaker 03:
What it does in HDMI is it takes all of those pixels which are encoded in a... I'm sorry, they're not pixels?

[00:28:12] Speaker 03:
The data packets that represent the pixels.

[00:28:16] Speaker 03:
The data packets that represent the pixels are encoded in a form called TMDS.

[00:28:21] Speaker 03:
That's the signaling format.

[00:28:24] Speaker 03:
Each of those pixels is decoded and then used to drive ultimately the transistors

[00:28:31] Speaker 03:
that light up the flat panel display.

[00:28:34] Speaker 03:
There's no taking of the bit stream and then reassembling it the way you would for decompression or the way that you have to do with MHL.

[00:28:46] Speaker 00:
It's a direct instruction to the machine.

[00:28:48] Speaker 00:
Excuse me?

[00:28:49] Speaker 00:
It's a direct instruction to the machine.

[00:28:52] Speaker 03:
Yes, once it is translated into this low voltage signaling format.

[00:28:57] Speaker 03:
And that is exactly what was going on in Lee.

[00:29:00] Speaker 02:
That's the sort of conventional... Doesn't the other side have an expert report or expert declaration that says this conversion step of HDMI to lighting up the pixels is deconstruction, reassembly?

[00:29:16] Speaker 03:
Absolutely not, Your Honor.

[00:29:17] Speaker 03:
The portions of the brief, both the opening and reply brief of the appellant, refer to Dr. Brophy's expert report.

[00:29:27] Speaker 03:
But actually what they do is they refer to their own brief.

[00:29:30] Speaker 03:
in opposition to summary judgment.

[00:29:32] Speaker 03:
If you look at that brief in opposition to summary judgment, it says nothing about reassembly.

[00:29:36] Speaker 03:
There's an example using a crib that is purchased and reassembled.

[00:29:40] Speaker 03:
And then that in turn cites Dr. Brophy and Dr. Brophy's report at page 38 through 39 that sets the record 49561.

[00:29:48] Speaker 03:
It says nothing about reassembly.

[00:29:52] Speaker 03:
It talks about this processing through a low voltage differential signaling interface.

[00:29:58] Speaker 02:
Is there any kind of

[00:30:01] Speaker 02:
IEEE manual or technical specification known in the art where this is the understanding of display format?

[00:30:12] Speaker 02:
Can't do any more so-called deconstruction reassembly?

[00:30:16] Speaker 03:
Certainly there's not in the record and I'm not familiar with a technical definition from a treatise with regard to display format.

[00:30:24] Speaker 02:
So that's one of my concerns is, you know, I'm

[00:30:28] Speaker 02:
looking through the spec and then looking through the evidentiary record, and I don't see anything definitively saying that's what display format means.

[00:30:37] Speaker 02:
But the other way of looking at it is given the important... And there wasn't really a markment hearing on this.

[00:30:43] Speaker 02:
There wasn't, but both sides didn't... So the summary judgment decision predicated on this kind of last second construction just for purposes of deciding summary judgment.

[00:30:54] Speaker 03:
But the judge had in front of him a set of undisputed facts.

[00:30:58] Speaker 03:
undisputed facts about how this technology operated.

[00:31:02] Speaker 03:
In Undisputed Fact 26, they, the person in this case, agreed with the characterization that MHL had to be reassembled.

[00:31:13] Speaker 03:
And there's nothing about reassembling with regard to any of the other true display formats that are discussed in the specification, such as DDI and HDMI.

[00:31:28] Speaker 03:
So thank you very much.

[00:31:35] Speaker 00:
Take it up to five minutes.

[00:31:37] Speaker 04:
Thank you.

[00:31:41] Speaker 04:
You asked a question about whether or not there was anything in Dr. Brody's report about deconstruction and reassembly, whether HDMI does that.

[00:31:49] Speaker 04:
Admittedly, the term deconstruction and reassembly was not used.

[00:31:53] Speaker 04:
That came about in the order.

[00:31:55] Speaker 04:
And so we didn't have an opportunity

[00:31:57] Speaker 04:
All of our briefing and expert reports was done before this concept of deconstruction and reassembly was introduced.

[00:32:02] Speaker 04:
There is a very detailed description, which I went through at a higher level, about how when HDMI is received, it then gets deconstructed into the raw data and then reassembled into low voltage differential signaling.

[00:32:15] Speaker 04:
All of that is before the court in the expert report.

[00:32:19] Speaker 01:
Where is that?

[00:32:21] Speaker 01:
Is this in the Brophy period?

[00:32:24] Speaker 01:
material around 4954 and so on?

[00:32:27] Speaker 04:
Yes, it is, Your Honor.

[00:32:31] Speaker 04:
The exact page of it starts on 4954, but more importantly, there's a diagram on 4955 at paragraph 37 of his report.

[00:32:45] Speaker 04:
This is an exemplar diagram of an LCD television and what happens.

[00:32:49] Speaker 01:
You can't be serious that you think we're supposed to be able to read that.

[00:32:53] Speaker 04:
If you go to the next paragraph, it then goes through a detailed explanation of the diagram in paragraph 38 talking about how it's first received.

[00:33:01] Speaker 04:
Then it gets processed by the digital television system on chip, which is what does the decoding.

[00:33:07] Speaker 04:
And then it gets processed into low voltage differential signaling, which is then what Judge Wallach raised was that's what actually then directly interfaces to display the picture on the television.

[00:33:18] Speaker 01:
And in what way is

[00:33:21] Speaker 01:
I don't know if you can do this in a couple of sentences or at least not, maybe not in a way understandable to me, but in what way is the processing to low voltage differential signaling, is that the term?

[00:33:35] Speaker 01:
Yes.

[00:33:35] Speaker 01:
Involve either, or I guess both, either deconstruction or reassembly.

[00:33:43] Speaker 01:
I think your friend on the other side started emphasizing the reassembly part.

[00:33:47] Speaker 01:
a little bit more than the deconstruction part.

[00:33:50] Speaker 04:
Before you get into LVDS, I'll call it shorthand, you have a bunch of raw data, essentially.

[00:33:57] Speaker 04:
Because we've already deconstructed the incoming HDMI, and now we have a bunch of raw data.

[00:34:02] Speaker 04:
The question is, OK, how are we going to get this raw data onto the TV?

[00:34:05] Speaker 04:
We can't just take this pool of raw data and just throw it up there.

[00:34:09] Speaker 04:
There has to be some kind of organization given to it so the TV knows, OK, this is where we put this pixel and this pixel.

[00:34:16] Speaker 04:
So the raw data is organized so that the TV can understand what to do with it and ultimately display it.

[00:34:23] Speaker 01:
So that would be the reassembly.

[00:34:24] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:34:25] Speaker 01:
So maybe I guess I need to go back to the step that got us to the raw data.

[00:34:31] Speaker 01:
When the HDMI signal or set of four signals are coming in, what's the process by which

[00:34:39] Speaker 01:
those bits are made into what you're calling raw data?

[00:34:43] Speaker 04:
So you have three data channels in the clock.

[00:34:46] Speaker 04:
Set aside the clock.

[00:34:47] Speaker 04:
Let's focus on a single data channel.

[00:34:50] Speaker 04:
And we all know MHL is a single serial channel.

[00:34:53] Speaker 04:
If you take one data channel in HTML, let's call it channel one.

[00:34:56] Speaker 04:
That's going to have data blocks, let's say one A, one B, one C, one D, one onwards.

[00:35:02] Speaker 04:
When that gets received, you're going to have to deconstruct that single serial data channel.

[00:35:09] Speaker 04:
And because in each of those individual blocks, there's a bunch of data inside of those.

[00:35:15] Speaker 04:
For example, you'll have your pixel.

[00:35:16] Speaker 04:
You'll have what's known as an HV sync.

[00:35:18] Speaker 04:
It's a horizontal vertical sync.

[00:35:20] Speaker 04:
All that's telling you is, if you think of it as a matrix on a TV, this pixel goes in row three column B. Sync S-Y-N-C-H.

[00:35:28] Speaker 04:
That's correct.

[00:35:29] Speaker 04:
And my point is that when that serial data stream comes in, the television has to deconstruct it.

[00:35:37] Speaker 04:
It has to break those up, and then it's going to then process those individually, and then it's going to convert that by reassembling, reorganizing it all, into low voltage differential signaling.

[00:35:50] Speaker 04:
And that really is no different than what happens when MHL comes in.

[00:35:53] Speaker 04:
Because when MHL comes in, you have a single serial data stream coming in.

[00:35:57] Speaker 04:
You break those packets up, and you're going to say, OK, packet 1A, you go down to slot 1.

[00:36:02] Speaker 04:
Packet 2A, go to slot 2.

[00:36:05] Speaker 04:
That's the same thing that's occurring when HDMI comes in, except it's happening three times.

[00:36:09] Speaker 04:
Because you have three serial channels coming in in parallel fashion, each serial channel is going to have to be broken up.

[00:36:16] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:36:16] Speaker 02:
Though they're saying, the other side's saying, what's happening with MHL is you're first converting it to HDMI before you then take the HDMI signal and do all the chop up into LVDS, as you said.

[00:36:33] Speaker 02:
That's correct.

[00:36:35] Speaker 02:
So they're not directly taking the MHL single channel data stream and going straight to LVDS.

[00:36:44] Speaker 04:
Correct.

[00:36:44] Speaker 04:
You're not.

[00:36:45] Speaker 02:
But you could have a situation where... And so that's the distinction that I think they're trying to make, that whatever they're doing, and it's called MHL, that's simply a precursor to HDMI.

[00:37:01] Speaker 02:
And HDMI is a display format.

[00:37:03] Speaker 02:
No one disputes that.

[00:37:05] Speaker 02:
And so what they have is some precursor to a display format.

[00:37:11] Speaker 02:
Well, then in that case, HDMI... They have some kind of intermediate version of what is actually a display format.

[00:37:18] Speaker 04:
Low voltage differential signal, I think everyone would agree, is a display format.

[00:37:21] Speaker 04:
That's what ultimately is going to get displayed by the television.

[00:37:24] Speaker 04:
You're going to wrap up your argument.

[00:37:25] Speaker 04:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:37:26] Speaker 04:
And my point is simply, in that context, HDMI is a precursor to a display format.

[00:37:32] Speaker 04:
And my point is simply that you can have a situation where you receive S-video and then that gets up-converted to another format.

[00:37:39] Speaker 04:
I mean, you can have several precursors.

[00:37:41] Speaker 04:
The problem here is we're trying to draw a line around, this is acceptable.

[00:37:47] Speaker 04:
And there's no support in the intrinsic evidence at all to support the line that was drawn by the district court.

[00:37:55] Speaker 00:
Thank you, counsel.