[00:00:00] Speaker 04:
composite technology versus the United States, docket number 161256.

[00:00:04] Speaker 04:
It is an appeal from the Court of International Trade.

[00:00:11] Speaker 04:
Does I understand it?

[00:00:13] Speaker 04:
Ms.

[00:00:13] Speaker 04:
Owens, you want three minutes for rebuttal?

[00:00:16] Speaker 04:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:00:16] Speaker 04:
OK.

[00:00:17] Speaker 04:
That's fine.

[00:00:18] Speaker 04:
You may begin.

[00:00:27] Speaker 00:
Good morning.

[00:00:28] Speaker 00:
May it please the court?

[00:00:29] Speaker 00:
My name is Kayla Owens, and I represent the Appellant Composite Technology.

[00:00:33] Speaker 00:
The issue before this court is whether the CIT erred when it found that a 6-millimeter size restriction under heading 4408 prevents composites' goods from being classified as veneered panels under heading 4412.

[00:00:46] Speaker 00:
There's no authority to support this proposition.

[00:00:50] Speaker 00:
The terms under heading 4408 and heading 4412 are not identical, and they're not required to carry the same meaning.

[00:00:59] Speaker 00:
The government omits an important part of Heading 4408 in its arguments.

[00:01:03] Speaker 00:
Heading 4408 doesn't just say sheets for veneering.

[00:01:08] Speaker 00:
Rather, it specifically says sheets for veneering for plywood or for similar laminated wood.

[00:01:14] Speaker 00:
It doesn't say sheets for veneering for veneered panels.

[00:01:18] Speaker 00:
The explanatory notes under Heading 4412.

[00:01:20] Speaker 04:
Don't we have to somehow determine what it means by thin sheets for veneering?

[00:01:26] Speaker 04:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:01:28] Speaker 04:
You say they omitted some stuff, but that's an important modifier, is it not?

[00:01:34] Speaker 00:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:01:34] Speaker 00:
But we don't believe that heading 4408 dictates what thin means, because veneered panels aren't specifically included.

[00:01:42] Speaker 00:
So that would mean that the court would look to the common definition of veneered, which simply says a thin layer of wood.

[00:01:50] Speaker 00:
It doesn't specify a size.

[00:01:51] Speaker 03:
How thin is thin?

[00:01:54] Speaker 00:
Well, when you look at the definition of thin, it says it's relatively small in extent from one surface to the opposite.

[00:02:03] Speaker 00:
So we look at the length, the depth, the width of the

[00:02:07] Speaker 00:
the product and in this instance the length is somewhere between 30 and 79 inches long the depth is somewhere between 31 and 44 millimeters so relatively speaking it's thin and then also when does it say relatively thin I guess that's my problem is if you're saying that that it's supposed to be relative then that means it's different for every single product right

[00:02:33] Speaker 00:
The way the tariff is currently drafted, customs would have to look on a case-by-case basis because heading 4408 does not dictate the size of veneered panels under heading 4412.

[00:02:46] Speaker 00:
There's nothing to support that proposition.

[00:02:47] Speaker 00:
Under heading 4412, the explanatory notes provide a definition for veneered panels that doesn't include a 6-millimeter size restriction.

[00:02:58] Speaker 00:
As the CIT noted in the CARS case,

[00:03:03] Speaker 00:
The term veneered itself is not defined by heading 4412, and the explanatory notes to heading 4412 don't incorporate or reference a 6-millimeter size restriction.

[00:03:14] Speaker 00:
So if the drafters had intended for that restriction to exist, they would have indicated.

[00:03:20] Speaker 00:
We see numerous subheadings throughout heading 4412 that do impose a 6-millimeter size restriction, but they're all with respect to plywood.

[00:03:28] Speaker 03:
The government asserts that it doesn't make much sense that something wouldn't be a sheet for veneering, but then when you actually attach it, it's transformed into a veneered panel.

[00:03:40] Speaker 03:
How do you respond to that point?

[00:03:42] Speaker 00:
Well, I think our position is that it doesn't have to be a sheet for veneering to be a veneer, the way the tariff is currently drafted.

[00:03:53] Speaker 00:
that dictates that a veneer has to fall under heading 4408.

[00:03:58] Speaker 00:
So then we would look to the common definition.

[00:04:00] Speaker 00:
We're not arguing that if this pine, piece of pine were imported separately, it would go under heading 4408.

[00:04:05] Speaker 00:
We're arguing that it doesn't have to go under 4408 to be treated as a veneer.

[00:04:10] Speaker 00:
That we can look at the common definition.

[00:04:12] Speaker 00:
And the common definition simply says, for one example, a thin sheet of wood, a layer of wood of superior value, or excellent grain for overlaying an inferior wood.

[00:04:23] Speaker 00:
So when we look at composites product, the pine is a superior grain of wood.

[00:04:31] Speaker 00:
The purpose of a veneer is sometimes decorative and it's also to provide stability.

[00:04:36] Speaker 00:
And that is the point of this pine cap.

[00:04:37] Speaker 00:
It's the face ply, so it's a superior grain in that it looks better than the inferior wood underneath.

[00:04:44] Speaker 00:
And it's also there to provide stability to prevent bowing or warping.

[00:04:49] Speaker 00:
So that's the purpose of the superior grain, and that's the purpose that this pine cap provides to the overall product.

[00:04:57] Speaker 04:
But why shouldn't we read these two provisions together and to at least infer that Congress meant to use the same term in the same way in each instance?

[00:05:08] Speaker 00:
Why should you read them together?

[00:05:10] Speaker 04:
Why shouldn't we read them together?

[00:05:11] Speaker 00:
Well, because they're not identical terms.

[00:05:14] Speaker 00:
Sheets for veneering is not the same as a veneered panel.

[00:05:18] Speaker 04:
And again, heading forward... What would you do with sheets for veneering other than veneer?

[00:05:23] Speaker 00:
Well, under heading 4408, it specifically says sheets for veneering for plywood and for similar laminated wood.

[00:05:31] Speaker 00:
And we know when we look at the explanatory notes under heading 4412, plywood, similar laminated wood, and veneered panels are all given different definitions.

[00:05:41] Speaker 00:
So there's no reason we should have to

[00:05:43] Speaker 00:
put veneered panels under the umbrella of similar laminated wood just for the purpose of imposing a size restriction from heading 4408.

[00:05:53] Speaker 04:
So what proportion, if you're saying that we should on a case by case basis determine whether it's relatively thin, what proportion do you propose?

[00:06:02] Speaker 00:
I think that there's no specific proportion.

[00:06:07] Speaker 00:
The definitions for veneers

[00:06:10] Speaker 00:
That are provided don't say a specific size and so again if when you look at the definition of thin it it talks about relative to the length the depth and the width are you saying that the veneer should be just thinner than the base and That would be sufficient to make it a veneer.

[00:06:30] Speaker 00:
I think that and I think that it would have to be a

[00:06:33] Speaker 00:
Center than the base I mean again when you look at our product substantially thinner than the base I don't think it needs to necessarily be substantial as long as it's there so you have two pieces of Wood if one of them is thinner than the other than the thinner one counts as a veneer I think it did again it depends I think they could both count as a veneer depending on the overall lending the thick one it I mean it I think it depends on

[00:07:01] Speaker 00:
I think it's relative to the overall length, depth, and width.

[00:07:07] Speaker 00:
And again, I think when you look at the definition of veneer, it simply says a thin layer of wood of superior grain glued to an inferior piece of wood.

[00:07:19] Speaker 00:
And that's what we have.

[00:07:20] Speaker 01:
But if I understand your answer to the question I just asked, you're suggesting that thin does not necessarily have to mean

[00:07:28] Speaker 01:
that it is thinner than the base to which it's attached.

[00:07:31] Speaker 01:
Was that what you were saying?

[00:07:32] Speaker 00:
I'm sorry.

[00:07:33] Speaker 00:
No, I misunderstood.

[00:07:34] Speaker 00:
I think it would have to be thinner than the base to which it's attached, yes.

[00:07:39] Speaker 03:
But just barely.

[00:07:41] Speaker 00:
I think that, I mean, I don't, it's a subjective, it would be subjective.

[00:07:46] Speaker 04:
Well, isn't that a problem if it's a purely subjective test?

[00:07:48] Speaker 04:
I mean, wouldn't that be objectionable that commerce could just use this heading and make subjective determinations?

[00:07:58] Speaker 00:
I think the problem with the way that the tariff is currently drafted is that there's no size restriction under heading 4412.

[00:08:06] Speaker 00:
I don't believe that 4408 provides that size restriction based on its language when it limits sheets for veneering for plywood and similar laminated wood.

[00:08:15] Speaker 00:
So if the intention of the drafters of the tariff was to have such a size restriction,

[00:08:23] Speaker 00:
The tariff needs to be edited to reflect that intention.

[00:08:29] Speaker 00:
But the way it stands right now, we are left with a subjective standard.

[00:08:33] Speaker 00:
I think when you look at the overall definition of veneer, the piece of pine in this case meets that.

[00:08:40] Speaker 00:
It's a thin layer of wood of superior grain.

[00:08:42] Speaker 00:
Again, the purpose of the superior grain

[00:08:45] Speaker 00:
is decorative and to provide stability, and that's the purpose of this piece of pine.

[00:08:50] Speaker 03:
But you don't want to read out thin.

[00:08:52] Speaker 03:
I mean, superior piece of wood is just one of the ways to define what it is.

[00:08:58] Speaker 03:
Thin is another way, right?

[00:08:59] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:09:00] Speaker 00:
Right.

[00:09:00] Speaker 00:
So I mean, you look at both of them in this instance together, it's 9.5 millimeters, which is 3 eighths of an inch, which

[00:09:11] Speaker 00:
I think a reasonable person would say is thin when compared to the length of between 30 and 79 inches and a depth of 31 millimeters to 44 millimeters.

[00:09:22] Speaker 04:
I'm having a bit of a hard time following on your proportions that it's supposed to be a comparison, not just between the depths of the two items, but also the length and the width.

[00:09:35] Speaker 04:
So are you saying that if something were thick,

[00:09:39] Speaker 04:
or in other words the same proportion as the per depth but didn't cover the whole length that it could be a veneer?

[00:09:47] Speaker 00:
I think then it would certainly be questionable because the definition of thin says relatively small.

[00:09:56] Speaker 00:
So relatively speaking, if you had something that was only six inches in length with the same depth and width, then it

[00:10:05] Speaker 00:
It may not be considered then.

[00:10:07] Speaker 00:
I mean, I recognize that this is a subjective standard that we're left with if the six millimeter size restriction doesn't apply.

[00:10:16] Speaker 00:
The problem is the way the tariff is currently drafted,

[00:10:20] Speaker 00:
That restriction doesn't exist under Heading 4412.

[00:10:24] Speaker 00:
Heading 4412 only has a six millimeter size restriction for plywood.

[00:10:29] Speaker 00:
And I don't believe that the language under Heading 4408 and 4412 are similar or identical in that they're required to have the same meaning.

[00:10:40] Speaker 00:
Because in order to do that, we'd have to then reach and say that, okay, for purposes of 4408,

[00:10:48] Speaker 00:
We're going to consider veneered panels to be similar laminated wood so that we can make this 6mm size restriction apply to veneered panels under Heading 4412.

[00:10:58] Speaker 00:
But then when we look at Heading 4412, veneered panels are defined separately.

[00:11:02] Speaker 00:
They're not treated as similar laminated wood.

[00:11:07] Speaker 00:
I think the problem is the way it's currently drafted, because either way, we're having to reach.

[00:11:12] Speaker 01:
I'm not sure I understood that last point about the similar laminated wood.

[00:11:16] Speaker 01:
Could you expand on that, please?

[00:11:18] Speaker 00:
So under heading 4408, it says sheets for veneering for plywood and similar laminated wood.

[00:11:26] Speaker 00:
It doesn't include veneered panels.

[00:11:30] Speaker 00:
Under heading 4412, which is where we believe composites merchandise belongs, the heading covers plywood

[00:11:37] Speaker 00:
veneered panels and similar laminated wood.

[00:11:40] Speaker 00:
And when we look at the explanatory notes to heading 4412, each of those products is provided its own definition.

[00:11:47] Speaker 00:
So we know that veneered panels are separate and apart from similar laminated wood.

[00:11:54] Speaker 01:
So knowing that each of those three... I'm not sure I understand why that helps you.

[00:12:05] Speaker 01:
You've got the reference to the term

[00:12:07] Speaker 01:
veneered, at least in one case veneered and in another case veneering.

[00:12:12] Speaker 01:
But it's talking about a veneer in both.

[00:12:15] Speaker 01:
And the specific item that we're focusing on here is not similar laminated wood, as I understand.

[00:12:23] Speaker 01:
You're not making that argument.

[00:12:24] Speaker 00:
No, Your Honor.

[00:12:25] Speaker 01:
You made it in the CIT, but not here, right?

[00:12:27] Speaker 01:
Correct.

[00:12:27] Speaker 01:
OK.

[00:12:28] Speaker 01:
So veneered panels is what we're focusing on.

[00:12:32] Speaker 01:
And the question then is whether sheets for veneering

[00:12:37] Speaker 01:
4408 is has to be viewed as essentially referring to the same item that Is part of the veneered panels and my question is why not I?

[00:12:49] Speaker 01:
Don't understand what similar laminated wood has to do with it if veneered panels is what we're talking about and focusing on here I guess what I'm trying to convey is that the

[00:13:00] Speaker 00:
because veneered panels is not specifically mentioned under heading 4408.

[00:13:04] Speaker 01:
No, but veneer is.

[00:13:08] Speaker 00:
Sheets for veneering.

[00:13:09] Speaker 00:
Sheets for veneering for plywood and similar laminated wood is the way.

[00:13:14] Speaker 03:
And other wood, right?

[00:13:16] Speaker 03:
It says and other wood.

[00:13:17] Speaker 03:
It says lengthwise.

[00:13:18] Speaker 00:
And our interpretation of heading 4408, which is consistent with customs, is that

[00:13:27] Speaker 00:
Heading 4408 provides for sheets for veneering and for other woods sawn lengthwise.

[00:13:32] Speaker 00:
So it's both of which have to be less than six millimeters, but it's when you look at

[00:13:40] Speaker 00:
sheets for veneering, it's with respect to plywood and similar laminated wood.

[00:13:45] Speaker 03:
So it's your position that because 4408 says sheets for veneering for plywood or for similar laminated wood, it doesn't include veneered sheets for veneering for veneered panels?

[00:13:57] Speaker 03:
Correct, Your Honor.

[00:13:59] Speaker 00:
If there are no further questions at this time, I'd like to reserve the remainder of my minute and 23 seconds for rebuttal.

[00:14:06] Speaker 00:
Thank you.

[00:14:07] Speaker 04:
We'll give you two minutes for rebuttal.

[00:14:20] Speaker 02:
May it please the court, under composites rationale, one could affix a piece of dimensional lumber to a base, and so long as that piece of dimensional lumber is thinner than the base, you've created a veneered panel.

[00:14:38] Speaker 02:
That applies in the face of the plain meaning of the term veneer.

[00:14:43] Speaker 02:
The only reasonable reading of the HTS as a whole is that

[00:14:48] Speaker 02:
If one takes a sheet for veneering and then affixes it to a base, one has created a veneered panel.

[00:14:55] Speaker 04:
Well, why wouldn't it have made more sense for the definitions in the two sections to be consistent?

[00:15:01] Speaker 04:
Why not put the height restriction into both of them, both 4408 and 4412?

[00:15:09] Speaker 02:
Well, there's no real need to do it.

[00:15:12] Speaker 02:
And another point to look at is that

[00:15:16] Speaker 02:
In 4412, in the explanatory notes, the drafters used the word thin, a thin veneer affixed to a base.

[00:15:26] Speaker 02:
So actually under composites reasoning, that thin veneer should be something even less than six millimeters.

[00:15:35] Speaker 02:
It should be something less than a sheet for veneering that's already defined earlier on in the HTS.

[00:15:43] Speaker 02:
Looking at the HTS as a whole, you're going from products closer to the tree for the most part, starting with logs and things like that.

[00:15:53] Speaker 02:
4407 is dimensional lumber, 4408 would be smaller, thinner pieces of what's essentially

[00:16:01] Speaker 02:
dimensional lumber and then moving on to more and more processed wood products.

[00:16:05] Speaker 02:
So it's only reasonable to take a definition from earlier on with less processing and use it in a product with more processing later on in the HTS chapter 44.

[00:16:17] Speaker 01:
Let me ask you, turning to the last point that Ms.

[00:16:19] Speaker 01:
Owens was making, how do you read the second

[00:16:26] Speaker 01:
clause, I guess it is, of 4408 that starts for plywood or similar laminated wood and other wood sawn lengthwise.

[00:16:36] Speaker 01:
What do you understand the role of and other wood in that clause to be?

[00:16:45] Speaker 02:
Well, that would be other wood that would be used for something other than veneering, but it would have to be less than six millimeters.

[00:16:51] Speaker 01:
Right, but what I'm trying to get at is

[00:16:55] Speaker 01:
Do you understand the sheets for veneering?

[00:16:59] Speaker 01:
To be limited to for plywood and for similar laminated wood stop or do you understand that?

[00:17:08] Speaker 01:
Second clause to mean that the sheets for veneering can be for plywood or for similar laminated wood or other wood Which of those two is the construction that you believe is appropriate?

[00:17:22] Speaker 02:
I I think it is for

[00:17:25] Speaker 01:
It's hard to do it without looking at the language.

[00:17:31] Speaker 02:
I'm going to parse it again so that I make sure that I get this correct.

[00:17:39] Speaker 01:
It's the second clause of 4408.

[00:17:40] Speaker 01:
For plywood or for similar laminated wood and other wood, sawn lengthwise.

[00:17:57] Speaker 02:
it says sheets for veneering for plywood or for similar laminated wood and other wood right so so those sheets for veneering would be used for any of those products including other wood you say yes including other wood because there's no comma before the and for other or there's no

[00:18:23] Speaker 02:
There's nothing delimiting between similar laminated wood and other wood.

[00:18:33] Speaker 04:
In 4412, there is an exception at the bottom.

[00:18:38] Speaker 04:
It says this heading excludes.

[00:18:41] Speaker 04:
Actually, there's two sections where it talks about what the heading excludes.

[00:18:46] Speaker 04:
And the one says that it

[00:18:50] Speaker 04:
It excludes thin sheets of wood for veneering obtained by slicing laminated wood and refers to 4408.

[00:18:56] Speaker 04:
What do you read that to mean?

[00:19:21] Speaker 02:
This is in 4412.

[00:19:22] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:19:29] Speaker 04:
Near the bottom.

[00:19:46] Speaker 04:
See where it says the heading also covers plywood panels, veneered panels, and panels of similar laminated wood.

[00:19:55] Speaker 02:
Plywood, veneered panels, and similar laminated wood.

[00:19:58] Speaker 02:
Other plywood consisting solely of sheets of wood.

[00:20:00] Speaker 04:
Right.

[00:20:01] Speaker 04:
And then it says this heading also excludes.

[00:20:32] Speaker 02:
Not surface.

[00:20:33] Speaker 02:
This is in the explanatory notes.

[00:20:34] Speaker 02:
Oh, in the explanatory notes.

[00:20:38] Speaker 02:
Thank you.

[00:20:39] Speaker 02:
Sorry.

[00:20:42] Speaker 02:
Good, it was not me.

[00:21:02] Speaker 02:
Correct and so under the EN 4412 would exclude products that fall within 4408 obtained by slicing laminated wood.

[00:21:21] Speaker 02:
This might mean that if there's a laminate and then you slice at the cross section of the

[00:21:31] Speaker 02:
of the laminate so that there's a large number of plies in each thin strip.

[00:21:36] Speaker 02:
That might be what this means.

[00:21:37] Speaker 01:
So are you saying then that thin sheets of wood for veneering as used in the explanatory note exclusion clause is a reference back to 4408 in effect?

[00:21:53] Speaker 02:
Thin sheets of wood for veneering obtained by slicing laminated wood.

[00:21:57] Speaker 01:
Yes, it's... I mean, it refers to 4408 there in the bold face, right?

[00:22:04] Speaker 02:
Right.

[00:22:05] Speaker 01:
Okay, so is that a ground on which we might conclude that when the explanatory note refers to thin sheets of wood for veneering, it means thin sheets is a reference to thickness not exceeding 6 millimeters.

[00:22:21] Speaker 02:
Yes, that would work.

[00:22:23] Speaker 02:
And that makes sense, and it's administrable.

[00:22:26] Speaker 04:
It would clearly work for you, but would it also mean that they were attempting to distinguish the two pettings?

[00:22:32] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:22:33] Speaker 04:
And to make sure that they weren't including one and the other?

[00:22:36] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:22:37] Speaker 02:
That's the most reasonable way to look at the explanatory notes in conjunction with the HTS as a whole.

[00:22:45] Speaker 03:
What is the distinction then that in 4408 is these thin sheets that have not been adhered to anything yet, or is there some other distinction?

[00:22:54] Speaker 02:
That's correct.

[00:22:55] Speaker 02:
So under 4407, the dimensional lumber like a 2x4, but if you slice and plane the wood so that it's less than a quarter inch or six millimeters thick, then it falls under a different heading, 4408, but it's still just a piece of wood that's less than six millimeters thick.

[00:23:15] Speaker 03:
as opposed to 4412 where there's thin pieces that could be adhered to one another?

[00:23:21] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:23:22] Speaker 02:
For example, plywood, you need to take at least three pieces of wood and adhere them together with the grains perpendicular to one another.

[00:23:29] Speaker 02:
The product here, the grains are parallel so it doesn't fall within plywood.

[00:23:37] Speaker 02:
For these reasons, we respectfully request the court affirm.

[00:23:43] Speaker 04:
OK.

[00:23:44] Speaker 04:
Two minutes.

[00:23:50] Speaker 00:
So the government just argued that heading 4408 is sheets for veneering for plywood, similar laminated wood, and other wood sawn lengthwise.

[00:24:02] Speaker 00:
But Customs has noted in rulings, specifically ruling F87750, that heading 4408 provides for sheets for veneering and other wood sawn lengthwise.

[00:24:16] Speaker 00:
It seems to have taken a different interpretation than the government is here today.

[00:24:21] Speaker 00:
Finally, I would just like to add that if the drafters had intended for the six millimeter size restriction to apply to veneered panels and heading 4412, they could have done so in several ways.

[00:24:34] Speaker 00:
As we discussed in our reply brief, in the JBLU case, this court found that

[00:24:39] Speaker 00:
looking at the language of related regulations shows that when customs intended to limit the regulation to register trademarks that expressly did so.

[00:24:47] Speaker 00:
By analogy, when the drafters intended to impose size restrictions, they expressly did so as heading 4408 and numerous subheadings for plywood under heading 4412 demonstrate.

[00:25:00] Speaker 00:
So they could have included

[00:25:02] Speaker 00:
a subheading with a size restriction for veneered panels.

[00:25:06] Speaker 00:
In addition, the United States could have added a restriction at the eight-digit level.

[00:25:11] Speaker 00:
The WCO could have added a size restriction to the definition of veneered panels.

[00:25:16] Speaker 00:
They could have referenced or incorporated heading 4408 in the definition of veneered panels or when defining veneered.

[00:25:23] Speaker 00:
And finally, they could have specifically said veneered panels in the language of heading 4408, and they did none of those things.

[00:25:32] Speaker 01:
What is your response to the point that Mr. Tassini was discussing in the exclusions in the explanatory notes of thin sheets of wood for veneering referencing 4408

[00:25:52] Speaker 01:
Where thin, if that is intended to incorporate a reference to 4408, would seem to mean 6 millimeters.

[00:26:00] Speaker 01:
Why isn't it reasonable to construe the word thin in this portion of the explanatory notes to be the same as the word thin on the preceding page where the near panels is defined, i.e.

[00:26:15] Speaker 01:
to mean 6 millimeters or less?

[00:26:19] Speaker 00:
My rating of this exclusion is simply saying that sheets of veneering that would be classified under heading 4408 wouldn't be classified under heading 4412.

[00:26:32] Speaker 01:
But my focus is on the use of the term thin.

[00:26:37] Speaker 01:
And the reference to thin sheets of wood for veneering is then

[00:26:43] Speaker 01:
followed by a bold reference to the heading 4408, which suggests that the explanatory note is conceiving thin to be the kind of sheets for veneering that are referenced in 4408, which are sheets that are less than 6 millimeters in thickness.

[00:27:02] Speaker 01:
Why is that not a reasonable construction?

[00:27:04] Speaker 00:
I believe that the definition of veneered panel

[00:27:13] Speaker 00:
when saying thin, I don't know that those two words need to be read to necessarily.

[00:27:19] Speaker 01:
I guess I'm focusing on the word thin.

[00:27:22] Speaker 00:
Right.

[00:27:22] Speaker 01:
I mean, we're trying to figure out what the word thin in the explanatory notes means.

[00:27:27] Speaker 01:
And what we have here is a reference to 4408 with an allusion to thin sheets of wood for veneering.

[00:27:35] Speaker 01:
And that suggests 6 millimeters, or at least it could be argued.

[00:27:39] Speaker 00:
My interpretation of thin is

[00:27:42] Speaker 00:
In this instance, sheets of veneering can be, I mean, again, in looking at this with respect to plywood, you see throughout the subheadings of 4412, they talk about different restrictions even other than 6 millimeters.

[00:27:58] Speaker 00:
I don't believe that thin here necessarily needs to reflect on the word thin under the definition of veneer panels.

[00:28:10] Speaker 04:
Okay, that case will be submitted.

[00:28:12] Speaker 04:
We'll move on to the next.