[00:00:19] Speaker 03: Next case for argument is 15-1-9-6-0, inmate job diva. [00:01:32] Speaker 04: Mr. Schloss, we're ready when you are. [00:01:48] Speaker 05: Good morning. [00:01:52] Speaker 05: May it please the court? [00:01:54] Speaker 05: The board's fundamental error in this case is that it discounted [00:02:01] Speaker 05: the possibility that personnel placement and recruitment services are rendered directly through software, and that the evidence in the record demonstrates that. [00:02:12] Speaker 04: I don't understand. [00:02:13] Speaker 04: You used some words. [00:02:14] Speaker 04: It discounted the possibility. [00:02:17] Speaker 04: I'm confused by a lot of terms that are being thrown around in this case, but that's another one. [00:02:23] Speaker 04: Is a possibility enough? [00:02:25] Speaker 04: I mean, when we're talking about whether or not it's a service or not, [00:02:28] Speaker 04: Is that the standard where there's the possibility of? [00:02:32] Speaker 05: No, Your Honor, the standard is not possibility. [00:02:35] Speaker 05: They discounted the evidence, Your Honor, essentially. [00:02:39] Speaker 05: One particularly telling comment at the end of the board's decision on reconsideration is the precise language was that the evidence in the board's view did not show what they called independent activity distinct from providing its software to others. [00:02:58] Speaker 02: Suppose that your client, which I guess your client does, sells software to another company which uses the software for recruitment purposes. [00:03:10] Speaker 02: Do you contend that that would satisfy what's described here in the registration, that is the personnel placement and recruitment services? [00:03:21] Speaker 05: The mere act of selling software? [00:03:23] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:03:24] Speaker 05: The mere act of selling software would not? [00:03:26] Speaker 01: So can you describe a little bit more how your software as a service works in the context of, is it the same as just selling someone a box of software and saying bye, adios, or how does it work? [00:03:40] Speaker 05: It is not, Your Honor. [00:03:41] Speaker 05: There are multiple ways that the software can be configured, and there are services, components, and options that can be selected in a myriad of different ways depending on the client's preferences. [00:03:50] Speaker 05: Some of the more typical functionality performed by the software is [00:03:55] Speaker 01: it goes out on [00:04:07] Speaker 01: Well, I find that the record isn't necessarily clear on that. [00:04:10] Speaker 01: There's some evidence about how it suffers a service, and I think I know what that means, but could you really elaborate on that aspect and how it's perceived by a customer who's using your software, which is, I think, not on their PC, but rather hosted elsewhere? [00:04:30] Speaker 05: Typically hosted by my client, yes, there are. [00:04:32] Speaker 02: Hosted by a client, what you mean is that your client operates a website which provides software that can be utilized by employers and by potential employees to match one with the other? [00:04:48] Speaker 05: Not exclusively by a website. [00:04:50] Speaker 05: My client operates many websites, but it also can host on separate dedicated servers for a client. [00:04:57] Speaker 05: particular iteration of the software? [00:05:00] Speaker 02: Well, I guess it's that second situation that I want to clear about. [00:05:07] Speaker 02: I can understand your argument that if you're hosting a website that potential employers and employees can access and it provides matching based on the software. [00:05:18] Speaker 02: I can understand the argument that's [00:05:21] Speaker 02: personnel placement and recruitment services. [00:05:23] Speaker 02: I'm having difficulty in seeing how supplying the software that's used by an employer constitutes that. [00:05:33] Speaker 05: I'm not sure I understand the last part of your honor's question, but I'll try to address as best I can. [00:05:39] Speaker 05: And I'll try to address Judge Stoll's question as well. [00:05:43] Speaker 05: I think they're similar questions. [00:05:47] Speaker 05: Okay. [00:05:50] Speaker 05: The software interacts with people by forwarding resumes to them in response to particular queries, by suggesting appropriate employment openings to candidates who may apply through the software. [00:06:06] Speaker 02: Who's running the software? [00:06:09] Speaker 05: The software, what do you mean by running, Your Honor? [00:06:16] Speaker 02: If you supply the software to an employer who utilizes the software for recruitment purposes, I'm not sure that that constitutes your clients performing recruitment services. [00:06:28] Speaker 05: Yes, but Your Honor, the software is provided as a service, which means not only is it physically hosted by my client, but depending on... What does hosted mean? [00:06:38] Speaker 05: It means it resides on a server that's not within the control directly of the customer, necessarily. [00:06:46] Speaker 01: So who is it that has the server? [00:06:51] Speaker 01: Who has the server that the software is hosted on? [00:06:54] Speaker 05: It could be, in some instances, my client, and in some instances, my client's customer. [00:07:01] Speaker 05: It depends on the client. [00:07:02] Speaker 04: Can we just roll back? [00:07:04] Speaker 04: I mean, I understand that you're getting a lot of questions. [00:07:07] Speaker 04: I think we started off by just wanting for you to describe to us how this works. [00:07:13] Speaker 05: Yes, you're right. [00:07:16] Speaker 05: One of my client's customers has a job opening, for example, for a software developer. [00:07:21] Speaker 05: And they are looking for software developers who have five years of experience with particular programming languages. [00:07:27] Speaker 05: They have particular certifications. [00:07:29] Speaker 05: And those are the only kind of candidates they want to see. [00:07:32] Speaker 05: They will put an inquiry into JobDiva software. [00:07:39] Speaker 05: JobDiva software will go out to the internet [00:07:42] Speaker 05: doesn't have a static database of these things, goes out, finds appropriate candidates, suggests them to the client, depending on the customer's configuration, would allow candidates to apply directly through the software. [00:07:57] Speaker 04: And they maintain control, JobDiva maintains control of that software? [00:08:01] Speaker 04: Or are you talking about instances where they just, companies purchase the software and then they go ahead and perform the services we've just described? [00:08:11] Speaker 05: By maintain control, you mean it resides on their server or something else, Your Honor? [00:08:18] Speaker 04: I don't know. [00:08:19] Speaker 04: I mean, I think it still started with the question of, is this something that some other company is independently purchasing your software and then using to provide the services you've just described? [00:08:31] Speaker 04: Or do you maintain control? [00:08:34] Speaker 04: And are you really operating the software? [00:08:38] Speaker 05: Yeah, JobDev is absolutely operating the software, Your Honor. [00:08:41] Speaker 02: What does that mean, operating software? [00:08:43] Speaker 02: It means it resides on your server? [00:08:46] Speaker 02: Yes, Your Honor. [00:08:47] Speaker 02: But I mean, are you saying to the public, come to us and we'll do this recruitment service for you? [00:08:58] Speaker 02: Or are you just saying to a company, use our software for your purposes, recruitment? [00:09:08] Speaker 05: JobDiva says to HR departments of companies, [00:09:12] Speaker 05: to stand-alone recruiting companies, we can help you recruit and identify appropriate candidates and place those candidates... By supplying software to you? [00:09:24] Speaker 02: Among other things. [00:09:26] Speaker 05: Well... Well, not merely by supplying software, Your Honor, they will also... I can understand. [00:09:32] Speaker 02: I understand the argument that if you're [00:09:34] Speaker 02: hosting a website, inviting employers and employees to come to the website and be matched. [00:09:40] Speaker 02: There's a good argument that that's the provision of recruitment services. [00:09:44] Speaker 02: I'm having difficulty in seeing how that's the case where you're supplying the software to the employer and the employer is running the software and doing the matching. [00:09:55] Speaker 05: The employer states its preferences, Your Honor, but it doesn't do the matching. [00:09:59] Speaker 05: The matching is done by JobDiva. [00:10:02] Speaker 05: And that's why it's a service center. [00:10:03] Speaker 02: What's done by your software? [00:10:05] Speaker 05: Well, it's not done by a human being, Your Honor, but it's nevertheless, it's performing the identical functions that human recruiters have always performed. [00:10:18] Speaker 01: is the important thing that we should be thinking about here, the perception of consumers when they're using the software on whether they're interacting with Java Vivo or the software on a different server [00:10:34] Speaker 01: Is that the important thing we should be focusing on? [00:10:37] Speaker 01: I mean, it seems to me, I thought that a lot of the cases, even the TTAB cases that the TTAB cited, were talking about consumer perception and whether the consumer's perceiving something as being a service or not. [00:10:50] Speaker 01: That that's one of the critical factors we should be looking at. [00:10:53] Speaker 01: Is that right? [00:10:54] Speaker 05: I would agree with that point, Your Honor. [00:10:56] Speaker 05: I would also say that the TTAB cases are largely ex parte use specimen cases. [00:11:03] Speaker 05: We have more of a record here. [00:11:05] Speaker 01: The thing is that I just want to try to explain to you what I'm having trouble with is that if it's just software that's residing on my own server, residing on my PC, I don't see that as me interacting with you. [00:11:16] Speaker 01: You give me the software and then I'm done. [00:11:18] Speaker 01: On the other hand, maybe there's something to the fact if it's [00:11:23] Speaker 01: Elsewhere and I got a wall going to the internet to gain access to that software and it's interactive. [00:11:29] Speaker 01: Can you just? [00:11:30] Speaker 05: Yes Absolutely. [00:11:32] Speaker 05: So your honor it's not as though it's a finished package that's handed off by job divas one of its customers. [00:11:39] Speaker 05: It's it's a service because as you said correctly your honor the customer of job Diva logs into the service puts in requests and starts [00:11:52] Speaker 05: requesting personnel placement and recruitment services. [00:11:54] Speaker 02: The person doing the requesting is the employer. [00:11:58] Speaker 05: It could be an employer directly or it could be a recruiting firm who's strapped for resources. [00:12:07] Speaker 02: Okay, so the record doesn't reflect your clients hosting a website which people come to to be matched. [00:12:14] Speaker 05: It's not merely a website, Your Honor. [00:12:18] Speaker 05: It's multifaceted. [00:12:22] Speaker 02: Does the record show that there's a website run by you, advertised by you, to employers and employees to come and be matched or not? [00:12:32] Speaker 05: I believe it does, Your Honor. [00:12:34] Speaker 02: Where does it show that? [00:12:36] Speaker 05: In at least 25 or 30 different screenshots [00:12:42] Speaker 02: uh... explaining the capabilities of the software uh... also well it's not explaining the capabilities of the software it's you know are you advertising to the public that's providing these recruitment services by hosting a website where this matching can take place can you give some sites also to certainly your honor uh... i would point to uh... there's uh... one is A117 [00:13:12] Speaker 05: Jobdiva is the largest ultimate full service solution for the tech industry with an extensive suite of products and tools front to back end covering all staffing needs. [00:13:22] Speaker 05: It may not be completely explicit, but covering staffing needs means matching employers and employees. [00:13:29] Speaker 05: That's what staffing is. [00:13:30] Speaker 05: That's what personnel placement and recruiting is. [00:13:33] Speaker 05: I would also point to [00:13:35] Speaker 01: What about on A117 where you say it's a web-based software as a service model, what does that add? [00:13:49] Speaker 05: What does that add? [00:13:51] Speaker 05: I think that tells prospective purchasers that if they don't need to install the software, it's hosted and provided as a service. [00:14:01] Speaker 05: And I also believe it indicates that the service of personnel placement and recruitment is provided by the software. [00:14:08] Speaker 05: Just quickly, because I'd like to reserve some time for rebuttal. [00:14:11] Speaker 05: I would also point to A174 and 175 describing the candidate portal, A176 and 177, which describes the candidate information management. [00:14:23] Speaker 05: All these things interact directly with people, as Your Honor was asking earlier. [00:14:29] Speaker 05: I would also point to AVE 392, find ideal jobs, forward resumes, measure candidates' qualifications against a job. [00:14:39] Speaker 05: These are just a few. [00:14:41] Speaker 05: They're more references to the candidate portal on AVE 396. [00:14:45] Speaker 05: So I'm not sure whether the board had some preconceived notion that software and recruitment services are [00:14:57] Speaker 05: separate and distinct from one another in all instances, but we believe they're not. [00:15:02] Speaker 01: Can I ask you one more question? [00:15:03] Speaker 01: I know you want to sit down, but Jobs Dashboard, it's on page A402. [00:15:09] Speaker 01: It talks about how Jabdiva comes equipped with a similar instrument panel that gives you quick access to key data. [00:15:15] Speaker 01: Where is that hosted? [00:15:17] Speaker 01: What is that Jobs Dashboard? [00:15:18] Speaker 01: Is that something that I need to access through the internet? [00:15:24] Speaker 05: I believe the dashboard is [00:15:27] Speaker 05: access through the internet via logging. [00:15:30] Speaker 05: So you couldn't get it on the public website without logging, which is true of most of this. [00:15:39] Speaker 01: And that jobs dashboard, is that the same thing at page A414? [00:15:44] Speaker 01: It talks about cruising, records, sourcing, and schedule activity. [00:15:48] Speaker 01: You see the candidates who responded to email merges and such. [00:15:51] Speaker 01: Is that on your jobs dashboard? [00:15:53] Speaker 05: I think the dashboard might be a subset of that. [00:15:57] Speaker 05: I think this may be, I think A414 may be a broader reference to handling job requisitions through, as it says, a simple data interface. [00:16:06] Speaker 05: So that could include the jobs dashboard. [00:16:09] Speaker 01: Do you have any screenshots at all on the record of exactly what your customers are seeing as they're interacting with the job diva software? [00:16:18] Speaker 05: I will leave. [00:16:25] Speaker 05: I believe they would see... I can't put my finger on it right now. [00:16:34] Speaker 05: But we certainly have screenshots of the website, which I can point you to. [00:16:41] Speaker 05: I just need a little press. [00:16:44] Speaker 05: I can have a few seconds for a bottle. [00:16:49] Speaker 04: Thank you. [00:17:00] Speaker 00: May it please the court, I just want to start out addressing one issue that came up from my friend. [00:17:08] Speaker 00: We are not talking here about just whether we have a service or a good, because software can be offered as a service, as we noted in our brief. [00:17:19] Speaker 02: And one of the things that... So suppose that they ran a public website in which they said, you know, we provide recruitment services [00:17:31] Speaker 02: you can log on as an employee, and our software will match the two of you. [00:17:36] Speaker 02: Would that constitute personnel placement and recruitment services? [00:17:40] Speaker 00: I don't believe so under the analysis in this case. [00:17:43] Speaker 00: And the reason is because if software is being offered in non-downloadable format, if in your hypothetical what the company is offering is a software solution offered via the internet, [00:17:58] Speaker 00: in non-downloadable format, and that is all that they're offering. [00:18:01] Speaker 00: That is the, I mean, for lack of a better word, the product, the thing that they are selling is a software solution, then that is properly categorized as a software as a service. [00:18:11] Speaker 00: if it's in non-downloadable format. [00:18:13] Speaker 02: That's the distinction that I find troubling. [00:18:17] Speaker 02: I really don't see the difference between human beings doing the matching and that being offered as a service and they're running the software on their own website and matching the people. [00:18:30] Speaker 02: The software as a service distinction doesn't really make much sense to me. [00:18:36] Speaker 02: That's the problem I'm having. [00:18:37] Speaker 00: Yeah, and I think here that one of the critical things to look at is what the board did, which is that it looked at whether JobDiva was placing people and whether JobDiva was recruiting people. [00:18:49] Speaker 00: And what JobDiva is doing is offering a software and database solution that allows HR professionals to do that magic. [00:18:57] Speaker 02: That's a different question, and I understand that that may be distinguishable and may not be. [00:19:03] Speaker 02: within the category of recruitment services, but the hypothetical I gave you was that JobDiva is running its own website, it's publicly advertising, we provide recruitment services through our website, you can log on as an employer and employee and we'll match you together. [00:19:19] Speaker 02: And to the extent that the board is saying that that doesn't constitute providing recruitment services because it's not people doing it, it's software doing it. [00:19:29] Speaker 02: I have a problem with that. [00:19:30] Speaker 00: Yeah, although the board never made the people distinction. [00:19:34] Speaker 04: Well, do you agree with Judge Dyke that that would be permissible or not? [00:19:38] Speaker 00: Huh? [00:19:39] Speaker 04: Well, I... Judge Dyke has described. [00:19:42] Speaker 04: Do you think that would constitute a service? [00:19:46] Speaker 04: It does constitute a service. [00:19:47] Speaker 04: Okay, so how is what Job Diva does different? [00:19:51] Speaker 02: No, wait, I don't think they're agreeing that that constitutes recruitment. [00:19:54] Speaker 01: That's right. [00:19:55] Speaker 01: It constitutes... But you say they have a service. [00:19:57] Speaker 01: I mean, in their registration, [00:20:00] Speaker 01: that the TTAB said they could have for the stylized mark. [00:20:04] Speaker 01: They say computer services, namely providing databases featuring recruitment and employment, employment and advertising, career information and resources, resume creation, resume transmittals and communication of responses there too. [00:20:18] Speaker 01: That's okay. [00:20:19] Speaker 01: That's a service that the TTAB said was okay as a descriptor. [00:20:23] Speaker 00: That's right, Your Honor. [00:20:24] Speaker 01: So that is a... So what if they would have said computer services for personnel placement and recruitment services? [00:20:30] Speaker 01: Is that the distinction? [00:20:31] Speaker 00: Well, it is the distinction, although that would be a different service. [00:20:37] Speaker 00: The other service that we offered here, we offered in our brief as an example, is the software as a service, which would actually be categorized in a different class. [00:20:45] Speaker 00: So these are class 35 services. [00:20:47] Speaker 00: All the services that we're talking about [00:20:48] Speaker 00: in this case are class 35 services. [00:20:50] Speaker 00: But there's an additional, we offer an additional possibility. [00:20:52] Speaker 00: So it may be that they're doing more than one thing. [00:20:55] Speaker 00: The database services, the services that they identify in their registration are sort of in the nature of these databases. [00:21:01] Speaker 00: But they also offer, appear to offer software as a service. [00:21:04] Speaker 01: I'm curious by your answer though. [00:21:05] Speaker 01: Yeah. [00:21:06] Speaker 01: What I was asking you is if they would have just inserted computer services before personnel and placement and recruitment services, would that have made their registration okay? [00:21:16] Speaker 00: It would not have, that phrase in that class would not have identified the software as a service, services that they're offering. [00:21:25] Speaker 00: Because computer services in that class would identify just in the manner in which the services were performed. [00:21:33] Speaker 00: And so you are still talking about the personnel placement, the act of placing someone and the act of recruiting someone. [00:21:40] Speaker 02: So if I understand, if they're running their own website, they're offering the service publicly, [00:21:47] Speaker 02: If they're just using software instead of people, that has to be software as a service as opposed to recruitment services. [00:21:54] Speaker 02: Is that correct? [00:21:55] Speaker 00: That's correct. [00:21:56] Speaker 00: And part of that is because it turns on what the consumer... I don't understand that. [00:22:00] Speaker 02: Really, I don't understand. [00:22:01] Speaker 02: I don't understand why having the software do it instead of people doing it takes it out of recruitment service. [00:22:08] Speaker 00: Well, it's because here what the board looked at was the definition. [00:22:12] Speaker 00: So it's not, I want to be clear that it's not to say that every time you employ software that it changes something to software as a service. [00:22:21] Speaker 00: It is in this case what the board found was that the act of recruitment was involved recruiting people and placing people. [00:22:31] Speaker 00: They are not placing people. [00:22:33] Speaker 00: Sort of the best analogy that I can come up with is a comparison to Westlaw. [00:22:37] Speaker 00: versus legal services. [00:22:39] Speaker 00: So Westlaw is a database service. [00:22:40] Speaker 00: You input information and you get results back from it. [00:22:44] Speaker 00: That is akin to their database services that they identify in their application. [00:22:48] Speaker 00: But it is not the same as calling a lawyer and saying, please give me the answer to this question. [00:22:53] Speaker 00: It's true that the lawyer may employ Westlaw to get to that answer, but it is not the same service. [00:22:59] Speaker 00: And so here what we're talking about is the accurate identification. [00:23:02] Speaker 00: And the board made a factual determination [00:23:05] Speaker 00: that what JobDiva offers is not personnel placement and recruitment services. [00:23:09] Speaker 00: And that is the type of finding. [00:23:11] Speaker 01: I don't see that in the decision. [00:23:14] Speaker 01: I mean, I hear what you're saying, but over and over again, they keep on saying that they're not rendering personnel placement recruitment as an independent activity distinct from providing software. [00:23:25] Speaker 01: I don't see where they've said that if a person was doing what they're doing, it's not personnel placement and recruitment. [00:23:31] Speaker 01: Over and over again, they seem to distinguish it on the ground [00:23:34] Speaker 01: that is just software. [00:23:36] Speaker 00: Well, what they said at A14 is that personnel placement and recruitment in petitioners' description of services means that petitioner is finding and placing people. [00:23:46] Speaker 00: So they are placing people in jobs at other companies or providing personnel staffing services for others. [00:23:53] Speaker 00: And there is nothing in the record that identifies that Job Diva is engaged in the placement or providing personnel staffing services for others. [00:24:02] Speaker 00: And that's the distinction that the board drew. [00:24:04] Speaker 02: Again, I think that one of the... Is that because they are not using people and using software, or is it because they're providing the software to employers who do the running of the software? [00:24:20] Speaker 00: It's the latter, Your Honor. [00:24:21] Speaker 00: They are providing the tool for the HR staffing companies to use [00:24:29] Speaker 00: where they, the staffing companies, input the information that they want and they get a result, right? [00:24:34] Speaker 00: It's a database service. [00:24:36] Speaker 00: And it's a service that functions on the internet, and so it's interactive. [00:24:40] Speaker 00: I mean, part of the distinction here is that when you have software and you have downloadable software or software on CD-ROM, it's static, right? [00:24:48] Speaker 00: And so there is an interactive component to this, and that is why it is classified as a service, and they are offering a service. [00:24:55] Speaker 00: It's just not the personnel placement and recruitment services. [00:24:58] Speaker 00: that are identified in the registrations. [00:25:01] Speaker 00: And one of the critical issues here is that it's very important to identify accurately the services that are offered. [00:25:08] Speaker 00: And what consumers are going to perceive from what JobDiva offers is that they offer a software solution. [00:25:15] Speaker 00: On A114 that my friend pointed the court to earlier, that example describes a full service solution, a solution [00:25:27] Speaker 00: And then they go on to say software as a service. [00:25:30] Speaker 00: That is what consumers are purchasing. [00:25:31] Speaker 00: They are not purchasing a personnel placement. [00:25:36] Speaker 02: Who are the consumers? [00:25:37] Speaker 02: Are it employers and recruitment services? [00:25:43] Speaker 00: I understand that it's offered to both, that it's both the outside staffing agency. [00:25:47] Speaker 02: Yeah, but it's not offered to potential employees. [00:25:51] Speaker 00: That's my understanding. [00:25:52] Speaker 00: That's correct. [00:25:55] Speaker 00: And I just wanted to reiterate a point that Judge Stoll made earlier, which is that the perception of consumers is a critical factor here. [00:26:02] Speaker 00: And this court noted that in the Lens.com case in the Converse situation. [00:26:08] Speaker 00: So in that case, the question was whether a goods provider was also offering services, was also offering software services. [00:26:19] Speaker 00: And what the court said there is that [00:26:21] Speaker 00: And when you sell a good and you utilize software, that software is not a separate product unless consumers perceive it to be a separate product. [00:26:31] Speaker 00: If it's just utilized in facilitating the sale of your products, you do not offer that separately. [00:26:37] Speaker 01: I thought that it was the reverse. [00:26:39] Speaker 01: I thought that Lens.com involved the sale. [00:26:41] Speaker 01: They were trying to say that Lens.com was trying to argue that they sold a good, not just a service. [00:26:48] Speaker 00: So they sold, oh, I'm sorry, so they offered the sale of contact lenses, right? [00:26:53] Speaker 01: And so- Well, and they said their software isn't good for- That's right, I'm sorry. [00:26:58] Speaker 00: I was thinking of the contact lenses as the product, but that's correct. [00:27:01] Speaker 00: So it's not the situation we have here, it's the converse situation. [00:27:05] Speaker 01: But it is, I agree with you. [00:27:06] Speaker 01: It supports the idea that there's a fact-specific analysis. [00:27:10] Speaker 01: A fact-specific- No bright line rules. [00:27:13] Speaker 00: That's right, a fact-specific analysis. [00:27:15] Speaker 00: There's no bright line rules. [00:27:16] Speaker 00: And the perception of the customer and what the customer understands, its purchasing is critical in the inquiry. [00:27:23] Speaker 00: And here, there's no question in the record that what JobDiva is offering is a software-as-a-service solution, unless the court has any further questions. [00:27:45] Speaker 05: So just to begin by addressing Judge Stoll's question, there is at A-94 a screenshot of what I believe a job reposition looked like in Job Diva at a certain point in time. [00:28:03] Speaker 05: I can't represent with complete confidence that it looks like that now. [00:28:06] Speaker 05: It probably looks different. [00:28:09] Speaker 05: Yeah, but it's not the best copy. [00:28:13] Speaker 05: If you look at the bottom, it talks about the skills, required experience, description, title, start date. [00:28:21] Speaker 05: These are all sort of headers that would be completed by a customer. [00:28:24] Speaker 05: I think this particular requisition would be for an intellectual property lawyer. [00:28:29] Speaker 05: So there's that. [00:28:30] Speaker 05: And then just to respond briefly to some of the points raised by my colleague, I think the Westlaw analogy is not an apt analogy. [00:28:43] Speaker 05: because it's not a database service. [00:28:47] Speaker 05: What JobDiva does is it goes out. [00:28:52] Speaker 05: It's not just interactive. [00:28:53] Speaker 05: It's 24-7 going to third-party sites to collect job candidate and job opening information and to present that to its clients. [00:29:04] Speaker 05: And in response to a question that Judge Dyke asked, [00:29:09] Speaker 05: Potential employees are candidates and they, in some circumstances, depending on what JobDiva's customer wants to set up, can apply directly through a JobDiva portal set up on a JobDiva customer's site. [00:29:25] Speaker 04: Thank you.