[00:00:39] Speaker 02: Okay, the next case is number 15, 1876, in Ray Noblet. [00:00:44] Speaker 02: Mr. Noblet. [00:00:52] Speaker 00: May it please the court, my name is Dan Noblet. [00:00:55] Speaker 00: I'm here representing myself in my capacity as the inventor for this system. [00:01:00] Speaker 00: This system is basically a relatively simple thing and the case at hand is a relatively simple one as well. [00:01:05] Speaker 00: It's a simple case. [00:01:06] Speaker 00: The patent and trademark office failing, so [00:01:08] Speaker 00: meet its requirements to provide a premium foster case. [00:01:13] Speaker 00: The technology generally relates to controlling pet access to homes. [00:01:19] Speaker 00: If you have a pet, you may well know that especially a dog, you have to come home after work, let it out, get up in the morning, let it out. [00:01:25] Speaker 00: It's a pain. [00:01:26] Speaker 00: So a lot of people have installed dog doors. [00:01:28] Speaker 00: A conventional dog door just allows the dog egress and ingress whenever it feels like [00:01:32] Speaker 00: But that's not necessarily a great solution either. [00:01:34] Speaker 00: The dog can be out there when the meter reader or somebody else is in the yard. [00:01:38] Speaker 00: It can cause all kinds of problems. [00:01:39] Speaker 00: The dog can get out. [00:01:41] Speaker 00: So how do you handle this? [00:01:42] Speaker 00: Now the state of the art system is to use an RFID tag which is attached to the dog's collar. [00:01:48] Speaker 00: The dog walks up. [00:01:49] Speaker 00: It senses it's an authorized critter. [00:01:51] Speaker 00: It can go out. [00:01:52] Speaker 00: It can come back in. [00:01:53] Speaker 00: But you don't have to worry about raccoons coming into the house. [00:01:56] Speaker 00: That's basically the state of the art. [00:01:58] Speaker 00: The problem, of course, there is, again, that you can't keep the dog from leaving when you don't want it to. [00:02:03] Speaker 00: There's no way to do so without going home and either locking it or manually unlocking that door. [00:02:08] Speaker 00: So the technology here is instead a wireless unit that controls the dog door at the dog door. [00:02:14] Speaker 00: And that can be controlled by a remote computer via control signal that says, OK, unlock the door so the dog can get out. [00:02:20] Speaker 00: And then you can relock the door when the dog is out or when you want the dog once the dog everything you just said is Disclosed by Kate's right it is not actually Kate's actually has a completely automated system Which is designed for controlling the training of the dog? [00:02:36] Speaker 04: It has it it sets timers from a remote computer To lock and unlock the pet doors it can do that And that's the thing it has basically two aspects to Kate's which are different [00:02:49] Speaker 00: uh... cases a completely automated system so it can only control that dog or with a timer uh... and actually is mcclintock that hands with uh... the are pretty tight tight pecky but it controls strictly two times or in response to sensors uh... so if it gets too hot or too cold or whatever the case may be or if there's a dog outside that it doesn't recognize it but the idea of a remote computer controlling the locking and unlocking of a pet door that concept actually is right there [00:03:19] Speaker 04: I don't know if I want to call it inventive concept, but that concept was already existing in the art. [00:03:25] Speaker 00: It's actually not. [00:03:26] Speaker 00: If you'll review closely, Cates, and again, this is part of the problem is that the Patent and Trademark Office's case relies on a whole bunch of assertions related to the ability to already have the capacity to remotely lock and unlock the doors. [00:03:38] Speaker 00: Okay. [00:03:39] Speaker 04: So how would you describe what Cates discloses? [00:03:41] Speaker 00: Cates is a local control. [00:03:42] Speaker 00: And if you'll look at figure one and figure 12 of Cates, you'll see that it's strictly local control. [00:03:47] Speaker 00: You have a monitoring system. [00:03:49] Speaker 00: which is wired to the dog door itself, and that's how you manage that dog door. [00:03:53] Speaker 00: You do so, and again, it's programmed. [00:03:55] Speaker 00: It's an automatic thing where you have either the sensors or some sort of timers that do it. [00:03:59] Speaker 00: There's no selective ability to lock and unlock that door, and it's not remote. [00:04:04] Speaker 00: It is a local system. [00:04:05] Speaker 00: Now, there are a couple of, I'm sorry, you were getting ready to say something. [00:04:08] Speaker 04: Selective, I mean, you can program the timer, right, to lock and unlock the door. [00:04:13] Speaker 04: Sure. [00:04:16] Speaker 04: ability to select when the time of the claims call for a control signal in a selectively operable lock i know but you're you're telling me that it's somehow and inflexible system and i don't think that's a fair way to characterize kids i think it is a fair way to characterizes it will only and always lock and unlock according to a certain time of the day forever no can't reprogram kates [00:04:40] Speaker 04: so that it can change the time that the door will lock and unlock? [00:04:43] Speaker 00: Sure you can. [00:04:44] Speaker 04: Well, then there is some flexibility. [00:04:46] Speaker 04: Then you and I agree on that level. [00:04:49] Speaker 00: There is some flexibility to be certain, but can you remotely control that lock to say, OK, I'm not going to be able to make it home tonight. [00:04:58] Speaker 00: I'm going to unlock that door. [00:04:59] Speaker 00: No, there's no indication that you can do that. [00:05:01] Speaker 00: And again, I would also point out that it's not a remote system. [00:05:03] Speaker 03: What about paragraph, I guess it's 183 of Cates, page [00:05:09] Speaker 03: 80 of the appendix, joint appendix, says, the remote control 102 communication, the remote control 112 communicates with the computer system 103 using the RF transceiver 602 to receive status information and to send commands to the system. [00:05:30] Speaker 03: Then one sentence after that, it says, two sentences, the owner can use the remote control 112 to send commands to the system. [00:05:38] Speaker 00: Yes, and that's true. [00:05:39] Speaker 00: The remote control can send commands to the system, but it doesn't say what kind of commands. [00:05:43] Speaker 00: If you read the greater context of CAITS, it's just talking about programming the system. [00:05:47] Speaker 00: And there are other commands. [00:05:48] Speaker 00: You can control the video system, the audio system. [00:05:50] Speaker 00: The CAITS system is a large patent disclosure. [00:05:54] Speaker 00: There's a lot there. [00:05:55] Speaker 00: They talk about animatronic trainers. [00:05:57] Speaker 00: They talk about ball throwing systems and automatic feeders. [00:06:00] Speaker 00: But there's no indication that you can actually control the dog door via that remote control at all. [00:06:05] Speaker 00: Again, it's also a [00:06:07] Speaker 03: What about 178? [00:06:09] Speaker 03: It says the system 100 can recognize the strange dog or other animal is in the area and take appropriate action, lock the dog door 3. [00:06:19] Speaker 00: Again, that's an automated system. [00:06:21] Speaker 00: That's a response to a sensor. [00:06:22] Speaker 00: That has nothing to do with actually remotely controlling that dog door with a selective signal. [00:06:28] Speaker 00: And again, that part is local. [00:06:30] Speaker 00: That part is handled by the monitoring system. [00:06:32] Speaker 00: I think it's 110 or 111. [00:06:34] Speaker 00: That monitoring system is local. [00:06:36] Speaker 00: Now the only other thing the Patent and Trademark Office points out that might be argued as a remote system is the base unit 104 and controller 1203. [00:06:46] Speaker 03: But is it much of a stretch if to say that the owner can communicate remotely with the system to say that the owner could then control [00:06:56] Speaker 03: be an obvious variation, say, the owner can control the locking and unlocking of the door. [00:07:02] Speaker 00: I think it is a stretch in the greater context of the CAITS system. [00:07:05] Speaker 00: The CAITS system is, again, dedicated to automatic control. [00:07:08] Speaker 00: The idea with CAITS is that you can program this thing. [00:07:10] Speaker 04: In CAITS, the owner of the dog can remotely interact with the dog, right? [00:07:19] Speaker 04: Correct. [00:07:19] Speaker 04: In what ways does CAITS disclose where the dog owner can remotely interact with the dog? [00:07:26] Speaker 00: I think the PTO brief actually discusses that to some degree, and I can find the references specifically if you like, but largely it refers to he can look at the dog with the video system, talk to the dog with the speakers, listen to the dog via the microphone using that remote control system. [00:07:42] Speaker 00: That's really what that remote is all about. [00:07:44] Speaker 00: It can also activate, I believe, certain things like a ball throwing system. [00:07:48] Speaker 04: uh... and uh... maybe a couple of other things okay uh... but there's no again the idea of the case is it's essentially a walk away that you program this thing to do its thing uh... and well it takes an interactive element i guess is what you would have to admit i don't think we have to actually have the okay so being able to interact with the dog being able to interact with certain toys to activate dogs you don't you don't think it's fair to say that's kates discloses an interactive component [00:08:18] Speaker 00: And no, I don't think so. [00:08:19] Speaker 00: And again, these are the findings of fact aren't supported by that. [00:08:23] Speaker 00: What Kate's is doing really is just providing you the ability to monitor the dog, kind of check in on its health and status, see where it is. [00:08:29] Speaker 00: It's not really the remote one. [00:08:31] Speaker 04: The dog owner's not playing with the dog? [00:08:33] Speaker 04: Not talking to the dog? [00:08:34] Speaker 04: Listening to the dog and activating a toy with the dog? [00:08:38] Speaker 00: Yeah, I think it can do those things, right. [00:08:40] Speaker 00: But again, the invention is not about a way to remotely play with your dog. [00:08:46] Speaker 00: The invention is a way to control the dog's access to and from the house. [00:08:50] Speaker 00: And the CAIT system is set up not to do that. [00:08:52] Speaker 00: The CAIT system is set up to say, I'm going to control this dog and I don't want to have to mess with it anymore. [00:08:57] Speaker 00: The idea is that I've got a series of sensors that are going to monitor temperature, humidity, whether there's a problem in the house. [00:09:04] Speaker 00: Whether there's animals outside, I'm just going to walk away from this thing. [00:09:08] Speaker 00: It's not really designed. [00:09:09] Speaker 00: In fact, it goes away from providing somebody to go and have control over the various things like the dog door itself. [00:09:18] Speaker 00: And that is really largely reflected in the way the Patent and Framemark Office comes at this. [00:09:25] Speaker 00: They have sort of a, instead of relying on actual disclosures and the reference to support their position, [00:09:30] Speaker 00: Instead, they sort of wave their hands at these things. [00:09:32] Speaker 00: They say that Kate's already had the capacity to remotely lock and unlock doors. [00:09:37] Speaker 00: But when you actually refer to it, look at the reference, it does not actually have that capacity. [00:09:42] Speaker 00: Their conclusions are drawn from findings of fact that don't actually support those conclusions. [00:09:47] Speaker 00: The conclusions are that it has the capacity to remotely lock and unlock these doors, when in fact it does not. [00:09:56] Speaker 00: Instead, what it does is it automatically does so, and it does so locally. [00:10:00] Speaker 00: Now, they do make a big point here about, if you'll refer to figure one of Kate's, which is at A50, about how the base unit 104 can... What about McClintock, right? [00:10:13] Speaker 04: I mean, you haven't mentioned McClintock. [00:10:16] Speaker 00: I haven't gotten that far, but yeah, okay, let's talk about McClintock. [00:10:19] Speaker 00: The McClintock system is basically a way for a [00:10:22] Speaker 00: managing a series of doors and access to those doors. [00:10:24] Speaker 00: It teaches the concept of remotely locking and unlocking a door, right? [00:10:29] Speaker 00: Not entirely. [00:10:30] Speaker 00: What it does describe is a judging person, which is effectively a security guard, looking at a camera. [00:10:36] Speaker 04: Wait a second, wait a second. [00:10:38] Speaker 04: What part of what I said is wrong about what McClintock discloses? [00:10:42] Speaker 04: I said McClintock discloses the idea of remotely locking and unlocking doors. [00:10:49] Speaker 00: What was wrong about that statement? [00:10:51] Speaker 00: Two things. [00:10:53] Speaker 00: What it refers to is a judging person locking the door or controlling the door in a security guard type arrangement and it refers to using a browser. [00:11:02] Speaker 03: When you say security guard, I look at the drawing, Appendix 39, it shows this lady looks like she's going to her house. [00:11:12] Speaker 03: She's got a big purse and sunglasses on. [00:11:14] Speaker 03: It doesn't look like she's a security guard. [00:11:16] Speaker 00: Yeah, and she's not actually the person that the McClintock reference is referring to at that point. [00:11:23] Speaker 00: The lady there is the person trying to gain access. [00:11:25] Speaker 00: She's the card wheel. [00:11:26] Speaker 00: I see, okay. [00:11:28] Speaker 00: There is a point in the McClintock reference where the door administrator, which is different from the judging person, is referred to as 52, which is the browser you'll see at the top of Figure 1 there. [00:11:39] Speaker 00: But that's kind of an isolated instance. [00:11:41] Speaker 00: Every other reference to door administrator doesn't have the number 52. [00:11:45] Speaker 00: And the number 52 typically refers to the premise. [00:11:49] Speaker 03: Fair enough. [00:11:49] Speaker 03: Fair enough. [00:11:50] Speaker 03: But why couldn't a door administrator be a homeowner? [00:11:58] Speaker 00: Well, I don't know that a door administration couldn't be a homeowner. [00:12:03] Speaker 00: I'm not sure I understand. [00:12:06] Speaker 00: They probably could. [00:12:08] Speaker 00: The point, though, is in this case, the way it's phrased in the McClintock reference is there's a judging person who may respond to... By and large, the McClintock system is a key-driven system. [00:12:19] Speaker 00: It's a way of matching up keys with the various doors. [00:12:22] Speaker 00: There is a point where they refer to it if you're confronted with a situation where the person doesn't have their card. [00:12:27] Speaker 00: So they can contact the judging person, presumably a security guard, say, hey, I forgot my card or what have you. [00:12:33] Speaker 00: that person, the judging person, can look at the person's image on the video camera and say, OK, come on in and do something through the browser, presumably clicking a button and that person comes in. [00:12:43] Speaker 00: Now, that is not really analogous to a pet situation. [00:12:46] Speaker 00: Pets don't really walk up to the door and buzz and say, hey, let me in. [00:12:50] Speaker 00: That's not really the context that we're looking for here. [00:12:52] Speaker 00: We're looking for a situation where the owner is the initiator trying to unlock or unlock the door to let the pet in or out. [00:12:58] Speaker 00: So it really doesn't apply the same. [00:13:00] Speaker 00: But that's really as close as we come in McClintock. [00:13:02] Speaker 00: There is a reference in McClintock to controlling pet doors, but they go away from that scheme. [00:13:08] Speaker 00: In the McClintock reference, they talk about really only two things, which is setting up times of operation or, again, that RFID pet key. [00:13:15] Speaker 02: But the office said, ultimately, appreciating that there was no specific disclosure, that the combination of the positions and the description in these two references would have, that it was obvious to [00:13:30] Speaker 02: combined in the way that you did and therefore it was obvious under 103. [00:13:37] Speaker 02: Where is the error in that? [00:13:40] Speaker 00: The error is that there is really no motivation at all. [00:13:42] Speaker 00: That they do provide this motivation and essentially they wave their hands at that part too. [00:13:47] Speaker 00: They say it would be obvious because now somebody can control this anywhere where there's the internet. [00:13:53] Speaker 00: But it really makes no reason why you would combine that aspect of McClintock with CAITS. [00:13:58] Speaker 00: CAITS is an automated system. [00:13:59] Speaker 00: And yes, you can set up the programming potentially from the remote control. [00:14:05] Speaker 00: But there's no real reason why you would want to control the dog door remotely. [00:14:11] Speaker 00: That's already been set up for automatic control. [00:14:13] Speaker 00: It automatically opens itself and closes itself according to the various sensors or what have you. [00:14:20] Speaker 00: Meanwhile, the McClintock system has this specifically to accommodate the security guard situation. [00:14:25] Speaker 00: McClintock is also a highly automated system, but it uses this security system, the kind of security guard judging person override for that particular instance, which is inapplicable in a dog door scenario. [00:14:38] Speaker 02: All right. [00:14:38] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:14:39] Speaker 02: We'll hear from the office, and we'll save you a lot of time. [00:14:45] Speaker 02: Mr. McBride. [00:14:46] Speaker 01: Good morning, Your Honor. [00:14:47] Speaker 01: May it please the court? [00:14:49] Speaker 01: This case is a very straightforward case of obviousness based on two references, Cates and McClintock. [00:14:55] Speaker 01: Now, the Cates reference nearly anticipates the claimed invention. [00:14:59] Speaker 01: It discloses a system that can automatically, from a remote base station, lock and unlock a dog door that can be located somewhere in the house or at a dog door outside. [00:15:09] Speaker 01: And it can unlock and lock that door automatically based on conditions that are sensed, like if the dog's in distress or if there's a stray animal in the house. [00:15:18] Speaker 01: or a stray animal in the yard, the one gap that Cates does not explicitly disclose is remotely controlling the door lock from a remote computer that is actually remote from the system of Cates. [00:15:33] Speaker 01: Now, Cates does disclose, as you touched on, the ability for a dog owner or a dog trainer to log in to the system via a remote computer, either through some handheld remote control device or through a computer that's connected to the internet with a web browser. [00:15:47] Speaker 01: and they can both interact with the dog using audio and video capability, and they can train the dog, and they can send commands to the dog verbally, and they can also send commands to the system. [00:16:00] Speaker 01: Now, CAITS doesn't actually go into detail about what specific commands the owner or the trainer can send to the system, but one of those commands, if you're training your dog, one command you could understand would be to unlock the door to let the dog out, [00:16:15] Speaker 01: or to lock the door if you think there's an animal outside that you don't want to come in the house. [00:16:20] Speaker 01: Now McClintock fills that narrow gap. [00:16:23] Speaker 01: The McClintock system discloses a system for controlling access to doors from a remote computer anywhere that a web browser is available. [00:16:33] Speaker 01: And that's in McClintock, figure one. [00:16:35] Speaker 01: It shows the element 52, which is where the administrator can be located. [00:16:41] Speaker 01: A judging person can [00:16:43] Speaker 01: look at someone who doesn't have credentials to unlock the door themselves, communicate with the person with audio and video capability, and make a judgment if they want to let that person come into the door and to unlock and lock the door. [00:16:56] Speaker 01: McClintock in paragraph 65 also discloses a method in a system for controlling a dog door remotely. [00:17:04] Speaker 01: And as a timer system, the owner can actually set the times of operation. [00:17:09] Speaker 01: So those disclosures, in combination with Kate's, [00:17:12] Speaker 01: render the claimed invention obvious. [00:17:15] Speaker 01: And I think there's substantial evidence in the record to support that determination. [00:17:19] Speaker 01: That prepares, or that concludes my prepared statements. [00:17:24] Speaker 01: If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. [00:17:26] Speaker 01: Otherwise, I'll take a seat. [00:17:29] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:17:30] Speaker 02: Thank you, Mr. Bride. [00:17:33] Speaker 02: Mr. Noblet. [00:17:46] Speaker 00: Let me respond to the points that the Patent and Trade Marathon brings up here. [00:17:51] Speaker 00: In particular, they rely pretty heavily on McClintock, and they make a lot of the same arguments here that the PTO makes that they don't really have any substantiation. [00:17:59] Speaker 00: They presume that Cates has the ability to remotely control the door, that you can unlock it and lock it remotely as claimed. [00:18:07] Speaker 00: That's not supported by the reference, and I ask you to [00:18:11] Speaker 00: upon review of this case, skeptically review the references themselves in view of what they are purported to support. [00:18:19] Speaker 00: The conclusions that they draw that CAITS provides the remote locking and unlocking, that's simply not true. [00:18:26] Speaker 00: It's automated locking. [00:18:27] Speaker 00: It's also not remote. [00:18:28] Speaker 00: It's handled by a local system. [00:18:30] Speaker 00: The monitoring system is local. [00:18:32] Speaker 00: It is not remote and wireless. [00:18:33] Speaker 00: The wireless systems in CAITS are not dedicated to controlling that door. [00:18:39] Speaker 00: When it comes to McClintock, McClintock itself, as the PTO just pointed out, does refer to controlling dog doors, but refers to controlling dog doors in a conventional way. [00:18:49] Speaker 00: It talks about doing it with a timer and doing so with an RFID pet key. [00:18:54] Speaker 00: That's not what's claimed. [00:18:55] Speaker 00: It really has nothing to do with the case here. [00:18:56] Speaker 00: It's just a disclosure of the prior art. [00:19:00] Speaker 00: The only other thing that McClintock refers to is some sort of ability to remotely control a door, but again, [00:19:07] Speaker 00: That is solely in conjunction with that security guard scenario, which is inapplicable when we're talking about pets. [00:19:12] Speaker 00: So what we're met with at the end of the day is just pretty much a classic case of hindsight, where yes, looking at the claims, you can go back and you could potentially reconstruct an obviousness argument that the claimed invention is somehow disclosed if you squint at it just right. [00:19:28] Speaker 00: But that's really not appropriate here. [00:19:30] Speaker 00: This is a classic case of hindsight. [00:19:32] Speaker 00: There's nothing in the references. [00:19:33] Speaker 00: that actually support the legal conclusions drawn by the Patent and Trademark Office, which right there eliminates the prima facie case. [00:19:40] Speaker 00: If you add on top of that the fact that there's no real motivation that's drawn from the references or that's provided by the Patent and Trademark Office that would have caused you to change a fully automated CAIT system to something that's selectively controllable by a remote computer, there's definitely no case there at all. [00:19:56] Speaker 00: On account of it, I would submit that the PTAB's rejection should be reversed. [00:20:03] Speaker 02: All right. [00:20:04] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:20:04] Speaker 02: Thank you, Mr. Narver. [00:20:06] Speaker 02: Thank you, Mr. Narver. [00:20:07] Speaker 02: Are the cases taken under submission?