[00:00:00] Speaker 02:
technologies against Jaguar Land Rover.

[00:00:03] Speaker 02:
Mr. Freitas?

[00:00:04] Speaker 02:
Freitas?

[00:00:06] Speaker 02:
How do we pronounce your name?

[00:00:07] Speaker 01:
Freitas, your honor.

[00:00:08] Speaker 02:
Freitas.

[00:00:09] Speaker 02:
Left that one out.

[00:00:20] Speaker 01:
May I please record?

[00:00:23] Speaker 01:
This case presents a contrast between, a contest between dictionary definitions.

[00:00:29] Speaker 01:
although it's been presented as something else in a lot of the arguments that's been made.

[00:00:35] Speaker 01:
Vehicle information technologies, which I'll refer to as VIT, relies on the plain meaning of the term pages as it appears in the Microsoft computer dictionary.

[00:00:46] Speaker 01:
That's our core construction, one complete full screen image.

[00:00:50] Speaker 04:
And we submit that that construction... Is that dictionary referenced in your specification anywhere?

[00:00:56] Speaker 04:
It is not, your honor.

[00:00:57] Speaker 04:
then why would we assume a computer dictionary would be something that a person of extraordinary skill would look to in determining a patent related to a car?

[00:01:07] Speaker 01:
Because the field here, Your Honor, is computer graphics.

[00:01:10] Speaker 01:
That's what we're dealing with.

[00:01:11] Speaker 01:
And the display that's presented is a computer display.

[00:01:16] Speaker 01:
There are specific references to that in the patent.

[00:01:19] Speaker 01:
That's the reason why it's in that field.

[00:01:23] Speaker 03:
Now, this construction.

[00:01:24] Speaker 03:
Sir, do you see the word page as

[00:01:27] Speaker 03:
referring to what we think of as a page, like a page in your brief, or as sort of a body of information lodged in the computer.

[00:01:38] Speaker 03:
I mean, I got the sense, and you may disagree, in reading the patent a bunch of provisions in it, it seemed that page was referring to not what I would think of normally as a page, but sort of information collected in the computer.

[00:01:54] Speaker 01:
Well, I think, Your Honor,

[00:01:56] Speaker 01:
What it refers to in the first instance is what the driver sees, that the image that's presented to the driver.

[00:02:03] Speaker 01:
But there are also some references in the patent that suggest that the pages as they are stored also are called pages.

[00:02:13] Speaker 01:
But in each case, it is what is stored.

[00:02:15] Speaker 01:
It is what's in memory, as opposed to the disembodied information.

[00:02:21] Speaker 01:
I think the patent.

[00:02:21] Speaker 01:
But what's stored is information, isn't it?

[00:02:24] Speaker 01:
Yes, it is, Your Honor.

[00:02:25] Speaker 01:
It can be, anyway.

[00:02:28] Speaker 01:
But the distinction between the image that's stored, the data that are stored, and the information freestanding is an important one.

[00:02:39] Speaker 01:
This is where Jaguar Land Rover has gone astray.

[00:02:43] Speaker 01:
What they've tried to point to is the disembodied information, any information.

[00:02:48] Speaker 01:
Under their construction, my answer to Your Honor would be a page.

[00:02:53] Speaker 01:
It's a collection of information that could be displayed on a page.

[00:02:58] Speaker 01:
And that's the other problem that they have.

[00:03:00] Speaker 01:
They talk about what can be displayed, but in the patent and in the Microsoft computer dictionary.

[00:03:05] Speaker 03:
When I'm looking at the screen, when I'm looking at the selectable area, the right side of the dashboard, so to speak, am I looking at a page?

[00:03:19] Speaker 01:
Yes, a page is what is displayed in the selectable area.

[00:03:23] Speaker 01:
That's what the patent says.

[00:03:25] Speaker 01:
That's one of the limitations in claim one and some of the other claims.

[00:03:29] Speaker 02:
So can I ask you about, you have, as I read your brief, two arguments challenging the district court's construction.

[00:03:39] Speaker 02:
One says that the page has to have formatting, such as certain things.

[00:03:45] Speaker 02:
And the other is that it has to take up the full screen.

[00:03:50] Speaker 02:
And I guess I wonder about,

[00:03:53] Speaker 02:
each of those.

[00:03:53] Speaker 02:
Let me start with the full screen.

[00:03:56] Speaker 02:
If I read, I think it's, is it figure two?

[00:03:59] Speaker 02:
I think it's figure two.

[00:04:01] Speaker 02:
Figure two as showing the page as a component of the selectable area and the various words wrapping around, I guess the top, around the border as not part of the page, what do I do with

[00:04:23] Speaker 02:
on the assumption that I read it that way.

[00:04:25] Speaker 02:
What do I do with that conclusion?

[00:04:27] Speaker 02:
Because it seems to me that would pretty strongly suggest the page is not the full screen.

[00:04:33] Speaker 01:
It would suggest that, Your Honor.

[00:04:34] Speaker 01:
But I think that the patent shows quite clearly that those identifiers 154 around the edges.

[00:04:44] Speaker 02:
See, I thought it was pretty clear to the contrary.

[00:04:49] Speaker 02:
That is that we don't have figures.

[00:04:53] Speaker 02:
that 154, I guess, are the identifiers.

[00:04:58] Speaker 02:
156 is what you call the page.

[00:05:02] Speaker 02:
122 is the whole selectable area, which is different from 156.

[00:05:09] Speaker 01:
We disagree with that, Your Honor.

[00:05:12] Speaker 01:
Your Honor is correct that 122 is the selectable area and 156 is the page.

[00:05:22] Speaker 01:
We don't think there's a difference.

[00:05:23] Speaker 01:
And we have an illustration of what would be necessary for there to be a difference.

[00:05:29] Speaker 01:
What would happen is that the page would be misshapen.

[00:05:33] Speaker 01:
In the bottom right here, where there's no identifier, the idea would be that this is a page with this part here and then that little indentation there.

[00:05:44] Speaker 01:
And that's not a realistic way to read figure two.

[00:05:49] Speaker 02:
Well, I mean, why not?

[00:05:52] Speaker 02:
I mean, it seems to me if one starts in the abstract without regard to this patent and asks, what does page mean in the computer world?

[00:06:02] Speaker 02:
It seems to me it does not, whatever else it has, it doesn't have a plain meaning.

[00:06:06] Speaker 02:
It has a variety of ordinary meanings.

[00:06:08] Speaker 02:
The page on the website, you can show the whole thing on a screen, but you're not typically looking at that page all at once on the screen because that's what scrolling does.

[00:06:19] Speaker 02:
It moves things around.

[00:06:22] Speaker 02:
If one turns to the context here, it seems to me you have the use of the term page in the spec, in the elaboration on Figure 2, indicating it's not taking up the whole selectable area, because it talks about the identifiers as something different from the page.

[00:06:40] Speaker 01:
Well, I don't think it does, Your Honor.

[00:06:41] Speaker 01:
I don't think there's anything in the patent that portrays the identifiers as different from the page.

[00:06:49] Speaker 01:
Certainly the identifiers are separately mentioned.

[00:06:52] Speaker 01:
But there's nothing in the patent that calls them different from the page.

[00:06:56] Speaker 01:
That's what's being argued about.

[00:06:58] Speaker 02:
And what is it that makes you think that the page couldn't have something other than purely rectangular shape that is the one with the little L, the alcove?

[00:07:10] Speaker 01:
Well, there's a variety of things, Your Honor.

[00:07:12] Speaker 01:
First of all, we'll go back to, and I would disagree with Your Honor, about whether there's a plain meaning.

[00:07:17] Speaker 01:
We think there is a plain meaning.

[00:07:19] Speaker 01:
as demonstrated in the Microsoft computer dictionary.

[00:07:22] Speaker 02:
Well, what do you do with the example that I gave?

[00:07:27] Speaker 02:
When I go to the Wall Street Journal homepage, I'm not looking at the whole thing the whole time.

[00:07:35] Speaker 02:
And that's sort of on one hand.

[00:07:37] Speaker 02:
I don't have to look at the whole thing.

[00:07:38] Speaker 02:
And the other thing is on my screen, I have maybe two windows, and I have that up and something else up.

[00:07:44] Speaker 02:
It's not taking up my whole screen either.

[00:07:48] Speaker 02:
I'm just not sure

[00:07:49] Speaker 02:
where I get the notion that everybody knows that a page, even in this broad context, is something that fills the screen.

[00:08:00] Speaker 02:
And neither is a component of the screen nor extends beyond the screen.

[00:08:05] Speaker 01:
So let's say your honor is looking at the Wall Street Journal.

[00:08:09] Speaker 01:
And the Wall Street Journal is up on the page, on the screen.

[00:08:13] Speaker 01:
It is filling the screen.

[00:08:16] Speaker 02:
Why do I scroll all the time?

[00:08:19] Speaker 01:
You scroll to look at something else.

[00:08:21] Speaker 02:
It's on the same page.

[00:08:22] Speaker 02:
I'm not clicking.

[00:08:23] Speaker 02:
I'm not getting anything.

[00:08:25] Speaker 02:
I mean, they call it a page.

[00:08:27] Speaker 01:
On the same page.

[00:08:29] Speaker 01:
How are you using that term, Your Honor?

[00:08:31] Speaker 02:
But my only point is that term has no plain, determinate meaning outside a particular context.

[00:08:39] Speaker 02:
It has a range of meanings, and we use it even in the computer world in a variety of ways.

[00:08:44] Speaker 01:
It is true, Your Honor.

[00:08:45] Speaker 01:
that there are different ways that the term gets used, just like there are different ways that a page of a book is addressed.

[00:08:51] Speaker 01:
But the foundational idea is what's set forth in the Microsoft dictionary.

[00:08:56] Speaker 04:
If you had wanted to use that dictionary definition, why didn't you put it in?

[00:09:01] Speaker 04:
I mean, you seem to think that the Microsoft dictionary is controlling for all computer graphics.

[00:09:07] Speaker 04:
But I don't see anything to suggest that that's the case.

[00:09:11] Speaker 04:
There's probably other computer dictionaries that have other definitions of pages.

[00:09:15] Speaker 01:
There might be, Your Honor, but this one's authoritative.

[00:09:17] Speaker 01:
It's been cited.

[00:09:18] Speaker 01:
This edition of this Microsoft dictionary has been cited numerous times by this court and by other courts.

[00:09:26] Speaker 01:
This dictionary is authoritative.

[00:09:28] Speaker 01:
But we start with this idea that there is a plain meaning as shown by that dictionary.

[00:09:36] Speaker 01:
We did present it, Your Honor.

[00:09:39] Speaker 01:
And the question then becomes, what is there on the patent that takes away from it?

[00:09:43] Speaker 01:
And the idea that Judge Toronto expressed that the identifiers are stated to be different from the page, I don't think that's borne out by the patent.

[00:09:53] Speaker 01:
There certainly hasn't been cited anything by Jaguar Land Rover that shows how it's different.

[00:10:00] Speaker 01:
They tried to make an argument based on claim 19.

[00:10:04] Speaker 01:
And what they said about claim 19 is that it somehow shows they're different.

[00:10:08] Speaker 01:
But all it says is that the identifiers

[00:10:13] Speaker 01:
our display, and looking for the language.

[00:10:21] Speaker 02:
See, I guess I was thinking of column four, line 61 to 65, that seems to use selectable area, page, and identifier as three separate things.

[00:10:32] Speaker 02:
Simple as that.

[00:10:37] Speaker 02:
Without saying, and by the way, the identifiers are part of the page.

[00:10:42] Speaker 01:
Well, certainly, Your Honor, there's something different there.

[00:10:45] Speaker 01:
But what it says on line 61, one or more areas within selectable area 122 can be reserved to display identifiers 154 for some or all of the pages.

[00:10:58] Speaker 01:
That doesn't say they're not part of the page.

[00:11:01] Speaker 01:
It does say that they're a different function, if you will.

[00:11:06] Speaker 01:
But it doesn't make them different.

[00:11:07] Speaker 01:
Different words are being used because, just like if you said,

[00:11:11] Speaker 01:
The parameters, that wouldn't make the parameters not part of the page.

[00:11:16] Speaker 01:
And the parameters are also repeatedly discussed as in using a separate word.

[00:11:22] Speaker 01:
But that doesn't signify that there's something different.

[00:11:26] Speaker 01:
And by the way, on the parameter point, one of the arguments that Jaguar Land Rover has made is that all that's required is that there be a parameter.

[00:11:38] Speaker 01:
Well, we know that's wrong because

[00:11:41] Speaker 01:
In column five, lines nine to 13, there's a reference to a welcome page.

[00:11:47] Speaker 01:
The welcome page does not have parameters.

[00:11:50] Speaker 01:
It's not a subsystem page.

[00:11:53] Speaker 01:
We know from that that what Jaguar Land Rover says is wrong.

[00:11:56] Speaker 01:
It isn't the case that all the patent requires is that the page have parameters, because the welcome page does not.

[00:12:05] Speaker 02:
And you should just know you're into your rebuttal time, and we do have four full cases.

[00:12:11] Speaker 02:
You can continue or reserve the remainder.

[00:12:14] Speaker 01:
I'll reserve you.

[00:12:14] Speaker 01:
OK, thank you.

[00:12:15] Speaker 01:
Thank you.

[00:12:22] Speaker 02:
Mr. Moore.

[00:12:24] Speaker 00:
Good morning, Your Honors.

[00:12:25] Speaker 00:
May it please the Court.

[00:12:27] Speaker 00:
The issue before us today is whether the district court got its construction of pages because it's correct.

[00:12:32] Speaker 00:
The district court construction of pages is correct because it's consistent with the intrinsic evidence.

[00:12:38] Speaker 00:
It's consistent with the claims and the specification

[00:12:40] Speaker 00:
that both describe the invention having a display.

[00:12:43] Speaker 00:
And you can see this in Figure 2.

[00:12:44] Speaker 00:
It's a single display with three areas, a fixed area, a selectable area, and two warning areas on the outside.

[00:12:51] Speaker 02:
How do we know that some of those are not overlapping with others?

[00:12:56] Speaker 02:
I kind of take it one way of thinking about Mr. Freitas' argument is that 156 does take up all of 122, but there's an overlay on it of 154.

[00:13:09] Speaker 00:
Well, there's two reasons you know that.

[00:13:11] Speaker 00:
First, well, that's slightly different.

[00:13:14] Speaker 00:
We know the fixed area and the selectable areas and the warning areas don't overlap because the claim requires that the fixed and selectable areas are unique and static.

[00:13:24] Speaker 00:
And the court interpreted that based on prosecution history to require them to be unique and static as to not to have overlapping boundaries.

[00:13:32] Speaker 00:
With regard to the identifiers 154,

[00:13:37] Speaker 00:
and the page 156, we know that for two reasons.

[00:13:41] Speaker 00:
We know that because the specification in column five, lines nine through 10, says the selectable page can only display the identifiers.

[00:13:50] Speaker 00:
And in that portion that you were citing where it talks about identifiers and then it talks about pages, it says how it can only display the identifiers, not the pages.

[00:13:59] Speaker 00:
So we know the identifiers are separate.

[00:14:01] Speaker 00:
We also know it from the markings on figure two.

[00:14:04] Speaker 00:
If you look at the markings on figure two,

[00:14:06] Speaker 00:
And the reply brief of page 16 has a nice figure for this.

[00:14:11] Speaker 00:
You can see that the line for 122 goes to the boundary of the selectable page.

[00:14:18] Speaker 02:
Right.

[00:14:18] Speaker 02:
But I can't quite tell, I guess.

[00:14:21] Speaker 02:
It's true that the line from 122 and the line from 156 terminate at different places.

[00:14:27] Speaker 02:
But that doesn't tell me entirely whether, for example, what's meant by 156

[00:14:36] Speaker 02:
is, yeah, it doesn't tell me what's meant by 156 except that it's different from 122.

[00:14:42] Speaker 02:
It could be essentially the entire area taken up that includes the identifiers, with the identifiers viewed as part of the page.

[00:14:55] Speaker 00:
I would suggest that the fact that it shows a difference is important because what it shows is 122 being drawn to the boundary shows that's actually the boundary of the selectable area.

[00:15:03] Speaker 00:
But the 156 doesn't have the same boundary as the selectable area.

[00:15:08] Speaker 00:
It's different.

[00:15:09] Speaker 00:
It goes to the area that's shown, just like 154 goes to the area of the identifiers.

[00:15:15] Speaker 00:
But I think there's two important points here.

[00:15:17] Speaker 00:
First, you don't even have to get to the identifiers being part of a page to know that VIT's construction is wrong.

[00:15:24] Speaker 00:
Because the claim and the specification both describe a page, a display, a complete screen, and the pages

[00:15:31] Speaker 00:
are only in the selectable area at most.

[00:15:35] Speaker 00:
They're not in the fixed area.

[00:15:36] Speaker 00:
They're not in the warning areas.

[00:15:38] Speaker 00:
So we know, based on the specification, that the pages do not have to be a complete screen or a complete display because they're not in the fixed area and they're not in the warning areas.

[00:15:50] Speaker 00:
So that alone rejects VIT's construction on its face.

[00:15:54] Speaker 03:
So do you read the word page as describing what is displayed

[00:16:01] Speaker 03:
Or is it a description of information lodged in the computer, or is it both?

[00:16:07] Speaker 00:
The patent talks about pages in terms of the information displayed.

[00:16:10] Speaker 00:
We know that for a few reasons.

[00:16:12] Speaker 00:
First, we know it based on the claims.

[00:16:13] Speaker 00:
The claims teach us that each page includes at least one parameter regarding each one optional subsystem.

[00:16:21] Speaker 00:
So the claims talk about pages in terms of what's displayed at, the parameters related to the subsystem.

[00:16:27] Speaker 00:
We also know it based on the specification

[00:16:29] Speaker 00:
where it describes pages in column four, lines 13 through 15, as, quote, pages of information that are used to adjust the parameters.

[00:16:38] Speaker 00:
So the patent in the page.

[00:16:39] Speaker 03:
So that suggests it's information.

[00:16:43] Speaker 03:
Correct.

[00:16:43] Speaker 03:
A collection of information as opposed to something on the screen, although it could be it's brought up on the screen.

[00:16:51] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:16:51] Speaker 00:
And that's why if you look at what Judge Andrew did here, looking at the claims and the specification,

[00:16:56] Speaker 00:
He looked at Figure 2, and he saw how the pages weren't the complete screen.

[00:17:00] Speaker 00:
They were just at most the selectable area.

[00:17:02] Speaker 00:
And he defined the term pages consistent with the claims and the specification to be a collection or section of information that can be displayed on the screen at one time.

[00:17:13] Speaker 03:
But not necessarily displayed on the screen.

[00:17:15] Speaker 03:
It could be just lodged in the computer before it's brought up on the screen.

[00:17:18] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:17:19] Speaker 00:
Because it can have multiple pages.

[00:17:21] Speaker 00:
It can call up different pages at different times.

[00:17:23] Speaker 00:
That's where the can be.

[00:17:24] Speaker 04:
I'm a little bit confused about that.

[00:17:26] Speaker 04:
connected to a display, right?

[00:17:28] Speaker 04:
I mean, the patent can't just be on information.

[00:17:31] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:17:32] Speaker 00:
There's a whole other computing element of the client.

[00:17:34] Speaker 04:
They would have a far larger problem if they were trying to patent information.

[00:17:38] Speaker 04:
Correct.

[00:17:39] Speaker 04:
So information in various formats that can be called up to a display.

[00:17:45] Speaker 04:
Correct.

[00:17:46] Speaker 00:
Correct.

[00:17:48] Speaker 00:
And so because the VIT's construction is inconsistent with the claims and the specification, I'm trying to require it to be one complete

[00:17:55] Speaker 00:
full screen, we know that's incorrect.

[00:17:58] Speaker 00:
With regard to the second part of VIT's construction, it really changed their position.

[00:18:02] Speaker 00:
At the district court, formatting was the key to their construction and how they tried to distinguish the Mercedes priority.

[00:18:08] Speaker 00:
And what we know now is there's simply no support and specification for requiring the formatting.

[00:18:14] Speaker 02:
Is there an agreement about what formatting means?

[00:18:18] Speaker 02:
Because I'm having a hard time imagining, literally a hard time imagining, unless I was looking at a Jackson Pollock screen,

[00:18:25] Speaker 02:
what a screen would look like without formatting.

[00:18:28] Speaker 00:
That's exactly right.

[00:18:29] Speaker 00:
That's the same question that Judge Andrews had below.

[00:18:32] Speaker 00:
And there was a long back and forth between Judge Andrews and the district and VIT's counsel, which is on A 1914 through A 1916, asking those exact questions.

[00:18:43] Speaker 00:
Well, what is the difference between the formatting and the patent pages shown on 2 and 4 and the formatting on the pages of the Mercedes?

[00:18:51] Speaker 00:
And after a long dissertation there, the only distinction VIT's counsel had

[00:18:55] Speaker 00:
was that the pages in the patent had what he called stylized fonts.

[00:19:00] Speaker 00:
Their expert referred to them as being aesthetically pleasing.

[00:19:03] Speaker 00:
But if you look at page 19 of the reply, they've walked away from all that.

[00:19:07] Speaker 00:
On page 19 of the reply, for the first time, they say none of these specific types of formatting are required.

[00:19:12] Speaker 02:
Well, and their proposed construction, I think, on this point was formatting such as, so it wasn't even limited to those particular things.

[00:19:20] Speaker 02:
And that led me to wonder what

[00:19:24] Speaker 02:
meaningful addition to the claim language there would be, if you said, require formatting.

[00:19:30] Speaker 00:
There would be none under what they've said on pages 17 through 19 of their reply brief.

[00:19:34] Speaker 00:
But what they argued to the district court was their expert relied on that formatting limitation to say the formatting had to be appealing or aesthetically pleasing.

[00:19:42] Speaker 00:
They relied on, VIT's counsel relied on the formatting to say it had to have stylized fonts.

[00:19:47] Speaker 00:
It had to have something more.

[00:19:49] Speaker 00:
But this is where Judge Andrews found two things in his orders.

[00:19:53] Speaker 00:
that our construction of pages is correct.

[00:19:56] Speaker 00:
And VIT agrees, if the district court's construction of pages is correct, summary judgment should be affirmed.

[00:20:02] Speaker 00:
But two, there is simply no reasonable construction that could have distinguished the pages shown in figures two and four of the patent from the Mercedes pages shown on page A714 of the appendix.

[00:20:15] Speaker 02:
Did the two of you have expressed a view in your briefs here about whether

[00:20:22] Speaker 02:
In order for there to be a reason to disturb the district court's judgment, we have to agree with VIT on one or the other or both of their two points, the full screen point and the formatting point.

[00:20:40] Speaker 02:
Suppose they're right about one or the other.

[00:20:43] Speaker 02:
Jaguar Land Rover doesn't care if they're right about any of it, because even under VIT's construction... No, but we... No, I guess... I mean, I assume your answer is... Under any construction.

[00:20:53] Speaker 02:
Under any construction, but persuade me.

[00:20:55] Speaker 00:
Okay.

[00:20:56] Speaker 00:
If you look at... The two parts of their construction are one complete full screen that includes formatting.

[00:21:00] Speaker 00:
If you look at the joint appendix on page A694, it shows the Mercedes dashboard, which has a fixed speedometer and fixed gas gauge and fixed RPMs, but with a small screen in the middle of it.

[00:21:12] Speaker 00:
And then on page A714, the Mercedes shows what pages can be displayed there.

[00:21:17] Speaker 00:
And you can click through the pages based on the buttons.

[00:21:19] Speaker 02:
And this is the one with the, I don't know what you call it, kind of the blowout of the 789 or 678 or something.

[00:21:26] Speaker 00:
Well, it's got all the different boxes next to each other of all the different pages.

[00:21:30] Speaker 02:
You had that?

[00:21:32] Speaker 00:
A714.

[00:21:33] Speaker 02:
Well, in your brief, I think you had that picture.

[00:21:35] Speaker 00:
Yeah, we do have it in the brief.

[00:21:36] Speaker 02:
Right.

[00:21:39] Speaker 02:
Do five, six, and seven appear simultaneously on that screen, or those are alternatives that could appear on that screen?

[00:21:47] Speaker 00:
They're alternatives.

[00:21:49] Speaker 00:
What you can see by the arrows, you see the black arrows that are up and down?

[00:21:53] Speaker 00:
Those are controls.

[00:21:54] Speaker 02:
Moving from one to the other?

[00:21:55] Speaker 00:
Yeah, those are controls under steering wheel.

[00:21:57] Speaker 00:
You can page up or page down, and you can go from one, two, three, through all these different pages.

[00:22:02] Speaker 00:
That's how it's programmed.

[00:22:04] Speaker 00:
And you can see here how this page will satisfy any claim construction, because

[00:22:09] Speaker 00:
The pages here are just like the pages in figures two and four.

[00:22:13] Speaker 00:
They're both text and boxes.

[00:22:16] Speaker 00:
Pages in figures two or four are text with boxes next to them.

[00:22:20] Speaker 00:
The pages here are text and boxes.

[00:22:22] Speaker 00:
If anything, the pages here have more formatting because they've got the vertical adjustment bars.

[00:22:27] Speaker 00:
That's the box with the plus at the top and the minus so you can scroll up and down your list.

[00:22:32] Speaker 00:
It's also got what the patent expressly teaches as formatting, highlighting.

[00:22:37] Speaker 00:
You can see if you look at box five, for example,

[00:22:39] Speaker 00:
the Fahrenheit is highlighted, because that's why you want Fahrenheit to show on your dashboard as opposed to Celsius.

[00:22:46] Speaker 00:
It does it for the text, whether you want English versus another language.

[00:22:49] Speaker 00:
So even if VIT's construction was adopted, so you had one complete full screen that included formatting, the Mercedes prior art would unquestionably find that.

[00:23:00] Speaker 00:
And that's why Judge Andrews found, under no construction, could you possibly include figures two and four of the Patness pages

[00:23:07] Speaker 00:
and exclude the Mercedes patents.

[00:23:10] Speaker 00:
That's also why Judge Andrews went further to find that VIT's construction was not even close in its claim construction order and in his brief on attorney's fees, because we've not only won the claim construction summary judgment order here, since that we submitted a 28-J letter on January 8th of this year, where Judge Andrews found attorney's fees were awarded partly because of the exceptional claim construction, and Judge Andrews found

[00:23:38] Speaker 00:
The part of BISP's proposed construction requiring formatting is so lacking in support that its unreasonableness stands out.

[00:23:46] Speaker 00:
And Judge Andrews sees a lot of patent cases, so as a good basis of information to know when a patent case stands out.

[00:23:52] Speaker 00:
And for all these reasons, we think the district court's construction should be affirmed and the finding of summary judgment should be affirmed.

[00:23:59] Speaker 00:
Unless there's any further questions?

[00:24:01] Speaker ?:
Thank you.

[00:24:20] Speaker 02:
Mr. Freitas, you have three minutes.

[00:24:22] Speaker 01:
Thank you.

[00:24:22] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:24:23] Speaker 01:
First of all, with respect to the point about information, Judge Schall, if you take a look on, I've lost it in my notes, but the patent refers to pages of information.

[00:24:43] Speaker 01:
Information is what goes on the page.

[00:24:46] Speaker 01:
The page itself is not mere information.

[00:24:48] Speaker 01:
And that reference in the patent to pages of information makes clear that the page is distinct from the information.

[00:24:58] Speaker 01:
That's one of the major problems with the district court's construction.

[00:25:01] Speaker 01:
The district court said information is a page.

[00:25:04] Speaker 01:
That can't be true when we have a page of information.

[00:25:10] Speaker 02:
How does the difference that you're arguing between the content of a visual representation

[00:25:15] Speaker 02:
and the visual representation bear on the anticipation question.

[00:25:22] Speaker 02:
This is a 102B kind of anticipation, not actual publication.

[00:25:26] Speaker 01:
Well, the way it bears, Your Honor, goes to how the claim constructions size up to this prior art.

[00:25:34] Speaker 01:
And let me just point out several things about that.

[00:25:37] Speaker 01:
First of all, we do not advocate for reversal based on the formatting point.

[00:25:42] Speaker 01:
That's presented as a claim construction issue,

[00:25:45] Speaker 01:
We do not say that it solves this case.

[00:25:49] Speaker 01:
But let me make a point about the formatting.

[00:25:52] Speaker 02:
Was that not an independent basis for saying, I guess, for anticipation you would have to have?

[00:26:01] Speaker 01:
Not in our brief in this court.

[00:26:02] Speaker 01:
We did not argue formatting.

[00:26:03] Speaker 01:
But let me make a point about formatting.

[00:26:06] Speaker 01:
Mr. Moore suggests that there's no requirement for formatting and that plain text would do the job.

[00:26:12] Speaker 01:
Think about those two images in their brief.

[00:26:15] Speaker 01:
the Lincoln, the bluish one, and the Mercedes, the other one.

[00:26:19] Speaker 01:
Mr. Moore just mentioned a feature of the Mercedes.

[00:26:22] Speaker 02:
The address is, when I think of plain text, I think it's formatted.

[00:26:26] Speaker 02:
I'd read from left to right.

[00:26:28] Speaker 02:
It has a certain font, a certain typeface.

[00:26:31] Speaker 02:
It's on a part of the page.

[00:26:34] Speaker 02:
How is that not formatted?

[00:26:36] Speaker 01:
Given the purpose of the invention, something different is required.

[00:26:39] Speaker 01:
Let me explain.

[00:26:40] Speaker 01:
The purpose of this invention

[00:26:43] Speaker 01:
is to allow the driver to keep his or her eye on the road and to avoid distraction.

[00:26:48] Speaker 01:
If what we had is plain text, formatted as formatting means under Microsoft Word, the purpose of the invention could not be met.

[00:26:59] Speaker 02:
The driver would be- Why not a beautifully simple, like I use Helvetica typeface with a nice, clean, easily instantly recognizable,

[00:27:12] Speaker 02:
meaning or, I guess, representation of a word.

[00:27:17] Speaker 02:
That's, I mean, why is that not for me?

[00:27:19] Speaker 01:
The point in simple terms is it must be sufficient to call the driver's attention to the information.

[00:27:25] Speaker 01:
Mr. Moore mentioned the languages.

[00:27:27] Speaker 01:
Well, one of them is highlighted.

[00:27:29] Speaker 01:
It has to be something that would enable the driver easily to see the information.

[00:27:36] Speaker 01:
Simply using font A or paragraph structure B

[00:27:40] Speaker 01:
wouldn't necessarily meet that problem.

[00:27:43] Speaker 01:
But that's not the basis that we're arguing.

[00:27:46] Speaker 02:
You should pay attention to your clock.

[00:27:48] Speaker 02:
You're actually over time.

[00:27:49] Speaker 02:
So if you can literally wrap up in two sentences, please.

[00:27:57] Speaker 01:
One point I'd like to make in closing.

[00:27:59] Speaker 01:
On page 12 of exhibit EE of the defendant's evidentiary appendix in the trial court, the Mercedes user manual states that the illustration

[00:28:10] Speaker 01:
do not necessarily match up with the vehicles.

[00:28:14] Speaker 01:
All Jaguar presented regarding the Mercedes was the illustrations.

[00:28:19] Speaker 01:
The record shows that they may not be accurate.

[00:28:22] Speaker 01:
They cannot provide a basis for affirmance.

[00:28:27] Speaker 01:
Thank you.

[00:28:29] Speaker 02:
The case is submitted.