[00:00:01] Speaker 03:
Our next case is BSG tech versus by season 17-1980

[00:00:46] Speaker 03:
Okay, Mr. Bennett, you reserve four minutes of time for rebuttal.

[00:00:50] Speaker 03:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:00:51] Speaker 03:
Okay, you can proceed.

[00:00:53] Speaker 02:
May it please the Court.

[00:00:55] Speaker 02:
The District Court granted summary judgment on Section 101 because it found that the claims were abstract, they did not improve the functionality of the computer, and it could be at our convention.

[00:01:06] Speaker 02:
However, all the evidence of the record demonstrates the exact opposite, and there's no contrary evidence.

[00:01:12] Speaker 02:
The claims were directed to three distinct databases.

[00:01:16] Speaker 05:
The specification explained that the database... You argue in the blue brief that the patents improve upon prior databases by allowing, quote, users to add parameters without modifying the predefined database structure.

[00:01:34] Speaker 05:
That seems sort of a core argument.

[00:01:36] Speaker 05:
Where do the claims teach how a user can add these parameters to the database structure, and where do the claims teach

[00:01:44] Speaker 05:
how the system prevents the predefined database structure from being modified.

[00:01:51] Speaker 02:
That is only with respect to claim nine of the 652 patents.

[00:01:54] Speaker 02:
There's two other patent claims that do not have that limitation.

[00:01:58] Speaker 02:
In terms of adding information.

[00:02:01] Speaker 05:
So take me to the record and show me.

[00:02:03] Speaker 02:
I'm sorry, for which point?

[00:02:05] Speaker 05:
Where do the claims teach how a user can add the parameters, and where do they teach how the system prevents

[00:02:12] Speaker 05:
predefined database structure from being modified?

[00:02:16] Speaker 02:
That was actually discussed in the prosecution history, where what was argued was that you can add parameters by having a parameter table.

[00:02:24] Speaker 02:
So when you add a parameter, you're adding a new, as opposed to having a field.

[00:02:29] Speaker 05:
Where do the claims, take me to the, where do the claims teach that?

[00:02:36] Speaker 02:
The claims don't, the claims, are you saying an example of how it's done?

[00:02:40] Speaker 02:
The claims do not provide an example of

[00:02:43] Speaker 02:
how you can modify, how you can add a parameter to the predefined, without modifying the predefined structure.

[00:02:49] Speaker 02:
That's discussed in the prosecution history, and I believe it was also discussed in the specification as to how you structure the database in order to accomplish that.

[00:02:59] Speaker 05:
In the 294 patent at column one, line 21, and column two, lines two to three, the specification explains that indexing

[00:03:12] Speaker 05:
is similar to organizing the white pages and yellow pages.

[00:03:17] Speaker 05:
Doesn't that demonstrate the claims are directed to an abstract idea?

[00:03:23] Speaker 02:
If they were only directed to that point, yes.

[00:03:26] Speaker 02:
But however, when you look at the claims, claim 10 of the 294 patent requires classifications, parameters, values, which not only in specification but in the expert report said that this is a very specific type of database.

[00:03:41] Speaker 02:
having that particular structure.

[00:03:42] Speaker 02:
You can have one that doesn't have classifications.

[00:03:45] Speaker 02:
You can have one that doesn't have parameters.

[00:03:46] Speaker 03:
If only it was a technology.

[00:03:47] Speaker 03:
Who creates that database?

[00:03:52] Speaker 02:
A programmer would.

[00:03:55] Speaker 03:
Somebody outside the scope of the claims.

[00:04:00] Speaker 02:
Well, you would have somebody who could buy a commercial database, and then a programmer would then structure it based on how the claims describe

[00:04:07] Speaker 03:
how to structure the database.

[00:04:08] Speaker 03:
And then that's the database, that program that somebody else has done, the claims haven't done, or the invention is not programming that database.

[00:04:16] Speaker 03:
That database comes to the user program, correct?

[00:04:22] Speaker 02:
The database has a general idea of what you can do with it.

[00:04:26] Speaker 02:
The programmer can then program it in certain ways to accomplish certain tasks.

[00:04:31] Speaker 01:
And programming that database is not patent eligible, is it?

[00:04:36] Speaker 01:
What's eligible?

[00:04:37] Speaker 01:
It's a new database.

[00:04:40] Speaker 02:
Right, a new structured database would be what would be patent eligible.

[00:04:43] Speaker 01:
So just the fact of... So if you start with a commercial off-the-shelf database, that's a conventional item.

[00:04:50] Speaker 01:
So you have to add something to that that's not routine and conventional or that's not directed to an abstract idea.

[00:04:59] Speaker 02:
In terms of timing, something that may be off the shelf today, back in 1998 when this patent was first.

[00:05:06] Speaker 01:
Are you claiming that you invented a new specific type of database?

[00:05:10] Speaker 01:
Yes, we're saying that.

[00:05:11] Speaker 01:
Where did the claim say that?

[00:05:14] Speaker 02:
It has a particular structure, classification, parameter value.

[00:05:17] Speaker 02:
Where is the particular structure?

[00:05:20] Speaker 02:
It's the classification.

[00:05:22] Speaker 02:
It's broken into classifications.

[00:05:24] Speaker 02:
This is claim 10 of the 294 patent and claim

[00:05:28] Speaker 02:
9 of the 652 patterns.

[00:05:30] Speaker 01:
You mean a plurality of item classifications, parameters, and values, and the like?

[00:05:37] Speaker 02:
Where it says, yes, there's a classification.

[00:05:39] Speaker 02:
So in claim 10, it says item classifications, parameters, and values wherein, and then it not only sticks with that, it says wherein individual parameters are independently related to individual item classifications.

[00:05:52] Speaker 02:
and individual values are independently related to individual parameters.

[00:05:57] Speaker 01:
But this is all just a method of indexing.

[00:05:59] Speaker 01:
I mean, that's what this claim is.

[00:06:00] Speaker 01:
It's a method claim.

[00:06:03] Speaker 02:
Well, yes.

[00:06:04] Speaker 02:
This is a method claim.

[00:06:05] Speaker 02:
Claim 9 of 652 patent is called the self-evolving database system.

[00:06:11] Speaker 02:
So it's a method claim.

[00:06:13] Speaker 02:
Claim 10 is a method claim requiring a particular.

[00:06:16] Speaker 01:
Well, if you want to go to claim 9 of 652, let's do that.

[00:06:19] Speaker 01:
Where in that?

[00:06:20] Speaker 01:
Does it claim a specific database structure that's new?

[00:06:23] Speaker 02:
It has a classification parameters values, which are used to describe.

[00:06:29] Speaker 01:
Where does it tell you what those classification parameters values or the like are?

[00:06:35] Speaker 02:
In the specification.

[00:06:37] Speaker 01:
OK, so that's helpful.

[00:06:39] Speaker 01:
You're trying to get to the specification.

[00:06:41] Speaker 01:
But how do we know that you have confined yourself to the specification or the like?

[00:06:48] Speaker 01:
In these one-on-one cases, we look at the language of the claims.

[00:06:51] Speaker 01:
And this is very, very broad functional language that seems to me to be directed to collecting and identifying information and data and the like.

[00:07:01] Speaker 01:
And we've never held that patent eligible.

[00:07:05] Speaker 01:
If you have a new database where the information is structured.

[00:07:08] Speaker 01:
You keep saying a new database, but how do we know what that database is and what you've identified as the database from looking at this claim?

[00:07:16] Speaker 05:
Are you saying new database in the sense that it has different information in it?

[00:07:22] Speaker 02:
No, Your Honor.

[00:07:23] Speaker 02:
It's a database that has a particular structure.

[00:07:28] Speaker 02:
It has to have a classification parameter value structure.

[00:07:31] Speaker 01:
But it doesn't tell us what that structure is in the claim.

[00:07:36] Speaker 02:
I mean, this is written towards a person of ordinary skill in the art and what a person of ordinary skill in the art can understand.

[00:07:42] Speaker 01:
But they still wouldn't know exactly which specific kind of parameters and values and classifications you're using based upon the claim language.

[00:07:53] Speaker 02:
From the expert report, it says a person of ordinary skill in the art would understand what is intended by classification, how you classify things.

[00:08:01] Speaker 02:
Parameters describe the item, so color,

[00:08:05] Speaker 02:
Size, price, those would be parameters.

[00:08:08] Speaker 02:
And then the values would be the information that you would put into the parameters.

[00:08:12] Speaker 02:
So color blue.

[00:08:13] Speaker 01:
And so how is any of this new database structure?

[00:08:17] Speaker 01:
It's just different parameters for information.

[00:08:19] Speaker 02:
The classification parameter value structure alone is not what's patented.

[00:08:28] Speaker 02:
It requires additional structure to it.

[00:08:31] Speaker 02:
So in claim nine of the 652 patent,

[00:08:35] Speaker 02:
You have to be able to add parameters without modifying the structure of the database.

[00:08:39] Speaker 02:
It's explained in the specification how to do that.

[00:08:41] Speaker 02:
It's also discussed in the prosecution history how that can be done.

[00:08:45] Speaker 02:
But in addition, this is not only a general structure database.

[00:08:48] Speaker 02:
This is a database in which not only does the programmer control it, but it is structured in a way that a user is allowed to input information.

[00:08:57] Speaker 02:
So there's a lot of databases out there that do not fit into this.

[00:09:01] Speaker 03:
In fact, there's very few databases.

[00:09:02] Speaker 03:
The user is not the programmer.

[00:09:04] Speaker 03:
That's correct.

[00:09:05] Speaker 03:
So all the users are doing is typing information in.

[00:09:11] Speaker 02:
That's correct, which is different than a lot of databases where, for example, Google, you type information in, but it's only used for searching.

[00:09:20] Speaker 02:
There's no information stored by Google when they're inputting the information.

[00:09:25] Speaker 02:
And so, well, there's no information that they're storing in a database that somebody else can search for.

[00:09:32] Speaker 02:
So it's a particularly structured database.

[00:09:33] Speaker 02:
I don't know about that.

[00:09:36] Speaker 02:
You're not inputting it for somebody else to go, well, what did somebody else search?

[00:09:41] Speaker 02:
What did you search for?

[00:09:42] Speaker 02:
How many times did you search for this?

[00:09:43] Speaker 02:
I assume you can probably buy it.

[00:09:45] Speaker 02:
But the intent of the user doing a Google search is not to store their own item information.

[00:09:50] Speaker 03:
So what are you claiming?

[00:09:51] Speaker 03:
The methods that the programmer undertakes to create the database?

[00:09:58] Speaker 02:
Claim 10 is a method in which you have a particular

[00:10:01] Speaker 02:
in which you're required to use a particular database.

[00:10:03] Speaker 03:
Do you understand what I'm saying?

[00:10:05] Speaker 03:
I mean, you keep saying this database.

[00:10:07] Speaker 03:
And when I was asking you a while ago, where does this database come from?

[00:10:10] Speaker 03:
You told me a programmer creates it.

[00:10:13] Speaker 03:
And as far as I can see, you're not claiming the steps that the programmer takes to create the database.

[00:10:23] Speaker 03:
This database just pops out of the blue, and then the user begins to use it.

[00:10:30] Speaker 02:
It's the method of using a particular database.

[00:10:34] Speaker 03:
But the particular database that you talk about is not the invention here, correct?

[00:10:40] Speaker 02:
No.

[00:10:41] Speaker 02:
The structure of how the database responds or how it operates is because you have to use a particular database and the database has particular functionality to it.

[00:10:54] Speaker 03:
How does the data get into the database?

[00:10:56] Speaker 03:
It's the user.

[00:10:57] Speaker 02:
the user inputs information correct.

[00:10:58] Speaker 02:
And so what the point of these databases are is the user inputs information, and as the information is compiled within the database, how do you then control how the database is organized and whether somebody could actually search for information and find useful information in the future.

[00:11:17] Speaker 02:
And so what all these claims are, on a high level, it's user input information into a database.

[00:11:23] Speaker 02:
There's generally specific structure.

[00:11:25] Speaker 03:
But it also requires- Are the databases static, or is there an algorithm involved here?

[00:11:33] Speaker 02:
From the context of each of the claims have a limitation which requires the database providing certain information to the user before the user inputs information.

[00:11:45] Speaker 02:
So not only is there a classification parameter value structure, but as the user is inputting information, the database prompts the user with

[00:11:55] Speaker 02:
with what other people have used in order to influence them to provide information.

[00:12:02] Speaker 03:
So other than telling us those functions, is there an algorithm or rules that are disclosed in the claims that are directed to them?

[00:12:14] Speaker 02:
Yes.

[00:12:15] Speaker 02:
So it's the language.

[00:12:17] Speaker 02:
The relative historical usage information or summary comparison usage information

[00:12:22] Speaker 02:
requires the database to provide specific information to the user related to the summer comparison usage information is statistics or information based on how frequently somebody has input information.

[00:12:35] Speaker 02:
There's various ways to describe that in the specification.

[00:12:38] Speaker 02:
And then the relative historical usage information provides information to the user of historically what have people input.

[00:12:44] Speaker 01:
But all of that is just providing data and information.

[00:12:49] Speaker 01:
describing a new structure for the database.

[00:12:52] Speaker 01:
It may be describing a new way that the database provides information.

[00:12:56] Speaker 01:
The new structure might be patentable.

[00:13:00] Speaker 01:
A new way of providing data in different formats and requiring different responses from the user is not.

[00:13:08] Speaker 02:
And in this database, it's not one or the other.

[00:13:11] Speaker 01:
There's a particular structure in addition to... Well, you keep talking about a particular structure, but I have yet to hear you describe to me what that particular structure is in more than very broad functional generic terms.

[00:13:28] Speaker 02:
The best I can say, Your Honor, is we had an expert report that said this is not a conventional database.

[00:13:34] Speaker 01:
That's not enough.

[00:13:35] Speaker 01:
Where in the patent claims or the specification

[00:13:39] Speaker 01:
Does it, and let me give you what I'm looking for.

[00:13:41] Speaker 01:
In Infish, we actually found a new database structure, primarily because it was a means plus function claim, and it had a specific algorithm in the specification that defined this new database structure.

[00:13:56] Speaker 01:
Do you have anything close to that here?

[00:13:58] Speaker 01:
I mean, I know these aren't means plus function claims, but do you have any specific algorithm or the like defining the structure of this new database?

[00:14:08] Speaker 02:
There are figures and examples in the specification that describe this is how you set up the database.

[00:14:17] Speaker 02:
This is what it means to be a classification.

[00:14:19] Speaker 02:
This is what it means to be a parameter.

[00:14:21] Speaker 02:
This is what it means to be a value.

[00:14:23] Speaker 01:
That doesn't sound like a new database to me.

[00:14:25] Speaker 01:
That sounds like this is how you program a database.

[00:14:29] Speaker 02:
Well, except at the beginning in columns one through three,

[00:14:34] Speaker 02:
They describe alphabetical databases, hierarchical databases, Yellow Pages databases, specialty databases, and said... Those are just all ways of organizing information on a database.

[00:14:46] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:14:47] Speaker 01:
And this patent is not those.

[00:14:50] Speaker 01:
It is improving upon that by having a particular strategy.

[00:14:54] Speaker 01:
What is your best part of the specification to show that this is a new database?

[00:15:01] Speaker 01:
I would say it would be a fact.

[00:15:03] Speaker 01:
Where?

[00:15:04] Speaker 01:
Don't just describe it to me.

[00:15:06] Speaker 01:
Where?

[00:15:06] Speaker 01:
In the specification, point me to the lines and columns that you think describes a new database.

[00:15:14] Speaker 01:
OK.

[00:15:16] Speaker 02:
After describing the specification as to what is in the prior art.

[00:15:21] Speaker 02:
Where are you?

[00:15:25] Speaker 02:
The prior art is described on appendix page 47, columns 1 and 2.

[00:15:42] Speaker 02:
And then in columns, in column 3, lines 25 to 30, it talks about, sorry, in columns 20, I'm sorry, column 3, lines 19 to 21, it talks about what the need is.

[00:15:57] Speaker 02:
Columns, column 3, lines 24 to 30 talks about the self-evolving database.

[00:16:04] Speaker 02:
And then when you skip to column 10, which is on appendix page 51,

[00:16:09] Speaker 02:
It talks about what is the improvements that this database results in, and what it allows a user to do.

[00:16:15] Speaker 02:
Where in column 10?

[00:16:17] Speaker 02:
Column 10, starting at line 38.

[00:16:20] Speaker 02:
It starts in short.

[00:16:22] Speaker 02:
It should immediately be apparent from the above discussion of the system.

[00:16:26] Speaker 02:
It's a significant improvement over previously wide-known database systems, and especially over previous ones.

[00:16:30] Speaker 01:
What's the significant improvement?

[00:16:33] Speaker 02:
It allows users to equitably and efficiently access hundreds of thousands or even millions of records.

[00:16:38] Speaker 00:
It doesn't tell me how.

[00:16:41] Speaker 02:
Even more importantly, the system allows the user to add data and search for items according to parameters, which are at the same time open to supplementation but tending to limit the choices of users by others.

[00:16:50] Speaker 01:
Again, functional language about what the database does, not what the new structure is.

[00:16:55] Speaker 02:
The new structure, well, the structure, Your Honor, the best I can say is that the specification explains

[00:17:04] Speaker 02:
what prior work databases were and why this is not conventional.

[00:17:08] Speaker 01:
And it has abstract ideas about how this can be used in different ways but doesn't define the structure.

[00:17:14] Speaker 01:
I mean the problem with this is, and I get it, these claims were written pre-ALIS and they were written using broad functional claiming language that was permissible pre-ALIS.

[00:17:25] Speaker 01:
But they don't have anything in them that describes a specific algorithm or the like about what this new database structure you're now trying to base patent eligibility on.

[00:17:36] Speaker 01:
I mean, I've just given you a couple of minutes to give me your best evidence of the specification.

[00:17:42] Speaker 01:
And all you point me to is functional claiming language.

[00:17:45] Speaker 01:
Is there anything else?

[00:17:48] Speaker 01:
You know, I'll have to look back.

[00:17:49] Speaker 02:
I mean, our point is that,

[00:17:53] Speaker 02:
People are coming in saying that these are conventional.

[00:17:55] Speaker 02:
We have experts who are saying this is not really a conventional thing.

[00:17:58] Speaker 01:
It doesn't matter if it's conventional or not.

[00:18:00] Speaker 01:
What it's directed to is an abstract idea.

[00:18:04] Speaker 01:
An abstract idea of collecting and indexing data, even if it's a new way of collecting and indexing data, is an abstract idea.

[00:18:20] Speaker 02:
patent eligibility by saying this is a new abstract idea.

[00:18:36] Speaker 02:
Classification parameter value is a very particular structure for a database.

[00:18:41] Speaker 02:
You may argue it's in the prior art.

[00:18:43] Speaker 03:
Mr. Bennett, I think we got your argument.

[00:18:46] Speaker 03:
And you used up all your rebuttal time, but we'll give you back some rebuttal time.

[00:18:50] Speaker 02:
Thank you.

[00:18:50] Speaker 03:
All right.

[00:18:51] Speaker 03:
Thank you.

[00:18:52] Speaker 03:
Give me back tools.

[00:19:01] Speaker 03:
Councilor Bonilla.

[00:19:03] Speaker 04:
May it please the court.

[00:19:05] Speaker 04:
Garbage in.

[00:19:06] Speaker 04:
Garbage out.

[00:19:07] Speaker 04:
That's a phrase from BSG Tech's reply brief, it's on page four, where they explain basically the thrust of the asserted claims in this case, the claims that are at issue.

[00:19:18] Speaker 04:
The whole idea behind these patents is if we have a more informed user of the database, if they have some information about historical usage, that they will then put in better information to the database.

[00:19:32] Speaker 04:
Now, that's not a new database, that's not a new database structure.

[00:19:36] Speaker 04:
That's the idea that if a user knows how information was previously put into this database, it will likely use some of that information to insert their information, their records.

[00:19:50] Speaker 04:
Now it's important to note that in these claims, there's nothing that actually requires the users to use previous parameters.

[00:19:57] Speaker 04:
There's nothing that actually requires them to use the parameters or values that were historically used by others.

[00:20:04] Speaker 04:
It's just if we give them this information,

[00:20:06] Speaker 04:
If we give the user this historical information, the user will be better informed and a better informed user provides better data.

[00:20:16] Speaker 04:
So instead of garbage in and garbage out, you get useful information coming in, which should make the database better.

[00:20:23] Speaker 04:
But that is quintessentially an abstract idea.

[00:20:27] Speaker 04:
It's just the idea that if we give these users information

[00:20:31] Speaker 04:
They will put better information into the data.

[00:20:33] Speaker 05:
Speaking of garbage, the district court relied on Mr. Barnett's declaration to convert this to a summary judgment motion.

[00:20:44] Speaker 05:
Over your objection, I might add.

[00:20:50] Speaker 05:
Does the absolute non-cognizable nature of what Mr. Barnett provided impact this case in any fashion?

[00:21:01] Speaker 04:
at all.

[00:21:03] Speaker 04:
Mr. Barnett simply parroted the attorney's arguments in the briefing.

[00:21:09] Speaker 04:
Even more so, he has no citation to anything other than the patents, provides no... As I said, garbage in.

[00:21:15] Speaker 04:
And we got garbage out.

[00:21:17] Speaker 04:
What we got coming out of that declaration was just him saying, well, there are other ways to put together a database that doesn't require... But the district court relied on it.

[00:21:26] Speaker 04:
Well, the district court considered

[00:21:28] Speaker 04:
and certainly said that we'll take this, I'm going to take this into account.

[00:21:31] Speaker 04:
And Judge Trader asked, look, do you have any other evidence, either side, any other evidence you want to submit before I convert this into a summary judgment motion?

[00:21:41] Speaker 04:
Each side said no, we have no more evidence.

[00:21:43] Speaker 04:
So the only thing they had was the patents, prosecution history, and Mr. Barnett's declaration, which is conclusory.

[00:21:50] Speaker 04:
The declaration simply states, it doesn't have anything to do, it doesn't actually say anything other than,

[00:21:57] Speaker 04:
It's possible to create databases that don't have parameters or values, which I find hard to believe that you could create a database without parameters and values.

[00:22:07] Speaker 04:
That's the whole point of a database is to have records that have particular categories and then information within those categories.

[00:22:14] Speaker 04:
But he says, well, there's other ways to do this other than what we've claimed.

[00:22:18] Speaker 04:
Well, that's irrelevant, just because it's possible to create a database that would not infringe on these claims.

[00:22:27] Speaker 04:
does not mean that the claims are not directed to an abstract idea or that there's any kind of inventive concept.

[00:22:34] Speaker 04:
Now, they talk about what they've mentioned very little about whether this was conventional in 1998.

[00:22:40] Speaker 04:
But opposing counsel just said you could take a database off the shelf and program it such that it would work in the manner required by these claims.

[00:22:51] Speaker 04:
But these claims are not directed to the actual structure of a database.

[00:22:55] Speaker 04:
Two of the patents are method claims, and the third

[00:22:57] Speaker 04:
The self-evolving database is just an analog of the method.

[00:23:00] Speaker 04:
It's just saying, have a database structure that has classifications, parameters, and values.

[00:23:08] Speaker 04:
And then provide the users with historical usage information such that they can go, oh.

[00:23:13] Speaker 05:
And it changes when data comes in.

[00:23:15] Speaker 05:
Absolutely.

[00:23:15] Speaker 05:
That's what self-evolving is.

[00:23:16] Speaker 04:
Right.

[00:23:18] Speaker 04:
As you, Judge Wallach, mentioned earlier during opposing counsel's argument, it's not a new database just because it has new information.

[00:23:25] Speaker 04:
Right?

[00:23:26] Speaker 04:
using a database with this idea that we'll give them some information.

[00:23:30] Speaker 04:
Oh, it turns out most people use the word red to describe a color instead of ruby or vermillion or whatever.

[00:23:38] Speaker 04:
That is not an improvement to the functionality of the database.

[00:23:44] Speaker 04:
Improving the information input to a database is not the same as improving the functionality of a database.

[00:23:52] Speaker 04:
And unless there are any other questions, Your Honor, we ask this Court to affirm local decisions.

[00:23:56] Speaker 03:
OK.

[00:23:56] Speaker 03:
We thank you very much, Mr. Bonilla.

[00:24:00] Speaker 03:
Mr. Bonilla, you have two minutes.

[00:24:12] Speaker 05:
How is that Barnett Declaration in any way usable by a court?

[00:24:19] Speaker 02:
What Mr. Barnett did was he reviewed the specification and based on his experience.

[00:24:25] Speaker 05:
It's completely conclusory.

[00:24:27] Speaker 02:
How is it not?

[00:24:29] Speaker 02:
The point was to point out that there's a very specific structure to the database.

[00:24:35] Speaker 02:
I know Your Honors think the classification parameter values is a generic structure.

[00:24:41] Speaker 05:
Look, federal rules of evidence require that in order for a court to consider an affidavit of someone,

[00:24:49] Speaker 05:
It must be admissible under the rules of evidence.

[00:24:57] Speaker 05:
Consider that Mr. Burnett was testifying live.

[00:25:00] Speaker 05:
How would that be admissible evidence, non-objectionally?

[00:25:05] Speaker 02:
Based on his ordinary experience as a person of ordinary skill in New York, explaining that a classification parameter value structure for a database is not an ordinary database, it's not

[00:25:18] Speaker 02:
a generic database.

[00:25:19] Speaker 02:
There are many generic databases out there.

[00:25:22] Speaker 02:
For example, the typical database is actually just parameters and values.

[00:25:26] Speaker 02:
There's no classifications to it.

[00:25:28] Speaker 02:
So when you go to an Excel spreadsheet, it's just parameters and values.

[00:25:31] Speaker 02:
A lot of databases are just classifications and data.

[00:25:35] Speaker 02:
So in terms of describing what he's doing is he's saying it may seem common to an ordinary person to say this is just a generic database, but to a person of ordinary skill in the art,

[00:25:47] Speaker 02:
the structure there, not just the classifications, parameters, values, but the fact that you have a database that is not controlled by the programmer.

[00:25:58] Speaker 02:
One claim has independent relationships between parameters and classifications, values, and parameters.

[00:26:06] Speaker 02:
And another one allows the user to input new parameters without modifying the structure of the database.

[00:26:14] Speaker 02:
But this is not something that's common.

[00:26:16] Speaker 02:
in the arts.

[00:26:17] Speaker 02:
It's not conventional.

[00:26:18] Speaker 02:
It's not ordinary.

[00:26:19] Speaker 02:
And it's a specific structure.

[00:26:23] Speaker 03:
All right.

[00:26:23] Speaker 03:
We thank you very much.

[00:26:25] Speaker 03:
We thank the parties for the arguments.

[00:26:26] Speaker 03:
This court is now in recess.

[00:26:28] Speaker 00:
All rise.

[00:26:31] Speaker 00:
The court is adjourned until Monday morning at 10 o'clock AM.