[00:00:17] Speaker 03: All right, the next case before the court is case number 171665 IXIIP versus Samsung. [00:00:26] Speaker 03: It is an appeal from a decision of the Patent Trial and Appeal Board following a final written decision on an inter partes review. [00:00:35] Speaker 03: All right, Mr. Thank you. [00:00:41] Speaker 03: I would not have gotten that quite right. [00:00:43] Speaker 03: But I appreciate the help. [00:00:45] Speaker 03: You want five minutes for rebuttal? [00:00:46] Speaker 03: Yes, please. [00:00:51] Speaker 01: Good morning. [00:00:53] Speaker 01: May it please the court. [00:00:54] Speaker 01: I'm Gautham Putnike with the law firm at Pepper Hamilton. [00:00:57] Speaker 01: I'm here on behalf of the Pellin IXI LLC. [00:01:00] Speaker 01: With me is Brad Lenny from my firm as co-counsel. [00:01:03] Speaker 01: This appeal narrowly focuses on the disclosure of one reference, Marchant, and what the application of Marchant is to the last limitation of claim one of IXI's patent, the 033 patent at issue. [00:01:20] Speaker 03: reveals is a factual question, right? [00:01:24] Speaker 01: That's correct. [00:01:25] Speaker 03: So we have to find that there's no substantial evidence to support the board's conclusion that Marchand showed what it showed. [00:01:31] Speaker 01: That's correct. [00:01:33] Speaker 01: Specifically, the parties dispute whether Marchand discloses a network configuration where a lookup service is stored on the mobile phone in Marchand's network. [00:01:42] Speaker 01: Petitioners in the PTAB acknowledge that Marchand does not expressly disclose this configuration. [00:01:48] Speaker 01: But assert that nevertheless, Marshawn implicitly discloses it. [00:01:51] Speaker 03: Do you have any problem with that general legal concept, that a prior reference can implicitly disclose something? [00:01:59] Speaker 01: I think if there's substantial evidence to support it, I would agree with it. [00:02:02] Speaker 01: I think in this case, you'll see that there is not substantial evidence supporting it, which is where the dispute is. [00:02:07] Speaker 03: OK. [00:02:07] Speaker 03: You spend a lot of time on Figure 4. [00:02:09] Speaker 03: But you agree that Figure 4 doesn't disclose all aspects of the mobile phone in Marshawn, right? [00:02:15] Speaker 01: I agree it doesn't, but it does [00:02:17] Speaker 01: For purposes of the appeal, it shows the material limitations or the aspects of the system. [00:02:27] Speaker 01: Petitioner and PTAB go through, they get to where they are for implicit disclosure with the use of petitioner's expert trying to backfill this issue and ignoring many disclosures that they rely on and that expressly are contradicted in Marchand itself. [00:02:45] Speaker 01: Specifically, the LUS is not on the phone in Marchant, and there's indicia of why that's so. [00:02:51] Speaker 01: The board went so far as to hold that just because it's not expressly prohibited, that means that Marchant implicitly discloses that the LUS can be on the phone. [00:03:00] Speaker 01: But we hold that that can't be substantial evidence, to your point, Judge. [00:03:05] Speaker 01: When reviewing the discrete issues on this appeal, it is important to keep in mind that the numerous and significant differences between today's mobile phones [00:03:12] Speaker 01: and those that existed in 2001 when the 033 patent was filed. [00:03:17] Speaker 01: Failing to account, taking into account those differences runs the risk of an impermissible hindsight bias. [00:03:23] Speaker 01: I'm next going to turn to what the board actually relied on for its finding of implicit disclosure. [00:03:29] Speaker 01: There are two basic issues that they did. [00:03:32] Speaker 01: They adopted petitioner's argument that because Marshat discloses that API is on the phone, that that must mean that the [00:03:41] Speaker 01: phone has the LUS that's at issue. [00:03:44] Speaker 01: When you look at that disclosure in more detail, you'll see that the Marchant itself says that's not the case. [00:03:52] Speaker 01: Petitioners don't even hedge with this issue. [00:03:54] Speaker 01: In their briefing at page 10, they state, in Marchant, the API corresponds to a service object stored in the Gini LUS. [00:04:02] Speaker 01: And as a result, the fact that the API is stored on the cell phone means that a lookup service must be on the cell phone. [00:04:09] Speaker 01: But if you look at the actual disclosure on Marchand, there's an example where that's just not the case. [00:04:14] Speaker 03: And we can turn to... But why do you believe there can only be one LUS? [00:04:28] Speaker 01: Well, that's actually not even material. [00:04:30] Speaker 01: There is a multiple LUS issue that was raised late in the proceedings. [00:04:34] Speaker 01: It was in the reply. [00:04:35] Speaker 01: And what's interesting about that, Your Honor, is that petitioners themselves disclose that you wouldn't be motivated in this instance to use multiple LUSs. [00:04:45] Speaker 01: And if you look at Appendix 156, petitioners' experts said that it would be inefficient to use multiple LUSs and you would want to use one. [00:04:54] Speaker 03: Did your expert ever say that in 2001 it would have been impossible to have multiple LUSs in a system like this? [00:05:02] Speaker 01: No, and that's because multiple LUSs weren't [00:05:05] Speaker 01: disclosed until the reply briefing in the underlying proceeding. [00:05:11] Speaker 00: Does a local network in Marshawn have to have a laptop? [00:05:15] Speaker 01: It doesn't have to have a laptop. [00:05:16] Speaker 01: The system is a series of devices. [00:05:19] Speaker 00: If it doesn't have to have a laptop, wouldn't the LUS be located on the mobile phone? [00:05:24] Speaker 01: Not necessarily, Your Honor. [00:05:25] Speaker 00: Where else would it be located? [00:05:27] Speaker 00: Even if it's not, wouldn't that implicitly say that it could be located on the [00:05:32] Speaker 01: Well, in the instance where the disclosure in Marshawn itself, it depicts a mobile phone coming into the network. [00:05:38] Speaker 01: And then what happens when it actually invokes the gateway capability to get to the internet. [00:05:43] Speaker 01: And that is why in our briefs, we talk about two PicoNets. [00:05:47] Speaker 01: And I can explain that. [00:05:48] Speaker 01: But it doesn't have to be on the laptop. [00:05:51] Speaker 01: The instances that are disclosed are on the laptop. [00:05:53] Speaker 01: It doesn't have to be. [00:05:54] Speaker 01: But it has to be on the existing PicoNet. [00:05:56] Speaker 01: So when a mobile phone comes into that PicoNet, [00:05:59] Speaker 01: and there's a slave master relationship created when the call control is invoked, that's a different PicoNet, which is our point. [00:06:06] Speaker 00: Your argument is that the phone can't be the slave and the master at the same time. [00:06:11] Speaker 01: Bluetooth technology says you can't be a master of two different PicoNets at the same time. [00:06:16] Speaker 01: That's in the Bluetooth specification. [00:06:18] Speaker 03: What do we make of the fact that you can download an API from the phone? [00:06:24] Speaker 01: So if we can go to that actual instance, Your Honor, in the disclosure, [00:06:28] Speaker 01: If you're looking at 290, there's an example given at line 24 through 27, where it opens with the service menu on the laptop indicates all services available on the PicoNet. [00:06:40] Speaker 01: So even in its own description, it tells you the LUS is on the laptop to begin with. [00:06:44] Speaker 01: And then it talks about the mobile phone sending the API to that laptop that wants to use the call control service. [00:06:51] Speaker 01: So our whole point with this, Your Honor, is there's an explicit contradiction to their position [00:06:56] Speaker 01: right in the Marshawn itself. [00:06:58] Speaker 01: You don't have to get to implicit. [00:06:59] Speaker 01: It says something otherwise. [00:07:00] Speaker 03: Well, I mean, there's a difference between Marshawn saying this is the way, the preferred way to do it, and Marshawn indicating that you can possibly have an LUS on the cell phone. [00:07:12] Speaker 01: That's true, Your Honor. [00:07:13] Speaker 01: But I think where we're focused is because petitioners, and for the implicit disclosure aspect of it, if you look at page 10 of Petitioner's Brief, they say the fact that the API is on the phone [00:07:25] Speaker 01: means that it must the lus must be on the phone and i'm saying the disclosure tells you otherwise does it render the network inoperable if the lus is on the phone that is our position your honor because that would be the two masters the master the two pico nets which is impermissible but doesn't marchal say there can be more than uh one lus in the network [00:07:48] Speaker 01: Yes, Marchand doesn't say that, Your Honor. [00:07:50] Speaker 01: It says it can be more than one pico net. [00:07:53] Speaker 01: There's nothing in Marchand that says there can be multiple LUSs. [00:07:56] Speaker 01: We don't quibble with the fact that the spec, the Bluetooth spec, I'm sorry, the Gini spec acknowledges that there can be multiple LUSs. [00:08:05] Speaker 01: We do argue that there's nothing in Marchand that addresses or even refers to that in passing. [00:08:11] Speaker 01: Whereas our theory of the two pico nets, there's a specific reference to scatter nets in Marchand itself. [00:08:17] Speaker 01: as well as an acknowledgement on 292 at line 17, the mobile phone may connect to multiple independent PicoNets since each PicoNet is limited to eight devices on the network. [00:08:28] Speaker 01: So whereas there's nothing in here about multiple LUSs, there is multiple PicoNets addressed explicitly. [00:08:39] Speaker 01: The second grounds that the board uses to find implicit disclosure is [00:08:47] Speaker 01: First off, the board doesn't address specifically the language that we just pointed to showing that the LUS was on the laptop for when the API goes from the mobile phone. [00:08:56] Speaker 01: The second grounds is the board held that Morchan does not expressly prevent the LUS from being disposed on the mobile phone. [00:09:05] Speaker 01: Our position is that this can't possibly be the standard for implicit disclosure. [00:09:11] Speaker 01: There are many things not expressly prevented in a given reference. [00:09:14] Speaker 03: I would agree with that general proposition, but there's more to it than that, right? [00:09:19] Speaker 01: Well, Your Honor, it just talks about different situations where it could have been. [00:09:25] Speaker 01: And petitioners, they pick up on this to rebut. [00:09:30] Speaker 01: They say that the passage that I have highlighted, you could have had a mere possibility of multiple LUSs. [00:09:37] Speaker 01: Again, petitioners initially in their petition [00:09:41] Speaker 01: counseled against using multiple LUSs. [00:09:43] Speaker 01: They said it should be one, either it's on the phone or the laptop, not both. [00:09:48] Speaker 01: Secondly, the mere possibility, again, can't reach substantial evidence in a patent disclosure. [00:09:53] Speaker 03: All right, so their experts said that a person of skill in the art would have considered the call control API to correspond to a genie proxy object, which must be downloaded from the LUS. [00:10:04] Speaker 01: Correct. [00:10:05] Speaker 03: And so because Marshawn teaches that the call control API is downloaded from the mobile phone, [00:10:10] Speaker 03: Dr. Kai said the mobile phone must also include an LUS. [00:10:13] Speaker 03: So we would need to find that that testimony is inaccurate or not credible, right? [00:10:20] Speaker 01: And that is the instance that I point to on 290, Your Honor, where it specifically says the LUS is on the laptop, where it says the services menu is on the laptop indicates all services. [00:10:31] Speaker 01: That's the LUS we're talking about. [00:10:33] Speaker 01: And then it goes on to talk about how the API is downloaded from the phone. [00:10:39] Speaker 00: say that the laptop is a necessary component of the network? [00:10:43] Speaker 00: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:10:45] Speaker 00: Okay, if the laptop isn't in the network, then where is the LUS? [00:10:49] Speaker 01: The LUS is going to be in whatever device that's in the network that is the master, the one who starts the network. [00:10:55] Speaker 00: Could it be the phone? [00:10:56] Speaker 01: If the phone started it, it could be, but if the phone's the only one, but in the instance, this whole Marchand disclosure is about a call control set. [00:11:04] Speaker 00: Say there's only a printer and the phone left in the network. [00:11:09] Speaker 00: Is the LUS located in the phone or the printer? [00:11:12] Speaker 01: In that instance, it could be on either, but it depends on the Marshawn. [00:11:17] Speaker 01: The focus of it is utilizing the call control center to get to the internet. [00:11:22] Speaker 01: So you're trying to add, you're enhancing the capabilities of a device. [00:11:26] Speaker 01: In your instance, the network would be started with the printer that doesn't have access to the internet. [00:11:33] Speaker 01: directly. [00:11:34] Speaker 01: It needs the phone to come into its system to be able to do it. [00:11:37] Speaker 01: So that's the focus of Marshawn and what it actually discloses. [00:11:39] Speaker 00: So you're saying that in that instance, the LUS has to be located in the printer? [00:11:43] Speaker 00: To start the network, yes. [00:11:45] Speaker 03: What about the statement on 292? [00:11:48] Speaker 03: The mobile phone may connect to multiple independent PicoNets since each is limited to eight devices on the network, each PicoNet. [00:11:57] Speaker 03: What are we to make of that? [00:11:59] Speaker 01: That's our point, Your Honor, that there are multiple PicoNets at issue here. [00:12:02] Speaker 01: There's the original PicoNet, which has the devices connected, like starting with your printer or the laptop, has the devices connected. [00:12:09] Speaker 01: The point of Marshawn is to get to the internet. [00:12:12] Speaker 01: How do you get to the internet? [00:12:13] Speaker 01: You use a phone that has cellular capability. [00:12:15] Speaker 01: So the cellular capability is the functionality that the other devices are sharing. [00:12:19] Speaker 01: And that's what the whole system is meant to do. [00:12:21] Speaker 01: We're saying there's an original PicoNet, as you said, Your Honor, with the devices that need this service. [00:12:28] Speaker 01: The phone comes in, provides this service, [00:12:30] Speaker 01: And then there's another conversation with a separate PicoNet where there's privity between the phone and the device using the call control center. [00:12:37] Speaker 01: And that's why we argue there's two PicoNets, the original one and then the new one where the call control center is actually invoked and used, which is why you have the discussion of a master service relationship subsequent to PicoNet. [00:12:49] Speaker 00: How would a proceed of looking at the different diagrams here and listening to this argument that you just gave us determine that [00:12:59] Speaker 00: that the LUS cannot be located on the cell phone? [00:13:05] Speaker 01: The LUS cannot be located on the cell phone that's being added to the system to provide the call control functionality because the devices are already connected before that happens. [00:13:16] Speaker 01: There's already some network that's already in place through Bluetooth where devices are connected. [00:13:21] Speaker 01: So we know from Bluetooth specifications there's already a master [00:13:26] Speaker 01: client-master-servant relationship among those devices. [00:13:30] Speaker 01: The phone comes in later to provide this call control functionality, and then we have the new master-servant relationship when it's invoked. [00:13:41] Speaker 03: OK. [00:13:41] Speaker 03: You've got a few minutes left for a bottle. [00:13:43] Speaker 03: We'll actually restore up to three minutes. [00:13:50] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:13:51] Speaker 02: Thanks. [00:13:51] Speaker 02: Good morning. [00:13:51] Speaker 02: May it please the court of Mike McHugh and Fischer-Riberson on behalf of Pelley's. [00:13:56] Speaker 00: It's kind of refreshing to see Apple and Samsung sitting at the same table. [00:13:59] Speaker 00: Right. [00:14:00] Speaker 02: We're on the same side. [00:14:01] Speaker 02: Absolutely, Your Honor. [00:14:03] Speaker 02: You can thank me. [00:14:05] Speaker 02: Well, the issue really is quite narrow on appeal here. [00:14:07] Speaker 02: Does substantial evidence support the board's conclusion that the lookup service is on the phone? [00:14:12] Speaker 02: Of course, it's a classic question of fact. [00:14:15] Speaker 02: The board reviewed the reference in quite detail. [00:14:18] Speaker 02: looked at the testimony from both sides on this, and the testimony related to what would one audience in the art, what would they understand from reading the reference? [00:14:27] Speaker 02: That was the testimony. [00:14:28] Speaker 02: And they credited our expert, they discounted their expert, and concluded, yeah, it does disclose to one audience in the art that they'll go beyond. [00:14:35] Speaker 03: OK, I'm trying to picture how this works, right? [00:14:37] Speaker 03: And so back in 2001, they're talking about you're not home, you've got all this stuff set up on your laptop, you've got this whole system set up, and everybody talks to each other [00:14:46] Speaker 03: You walk in and boom, your phone's automatically connected and so you can make a call based on the information that's in the laptop. [00:14:54] Speaker 03: Sounds pretty cool, but it sounds different than what had been done before. [00:14:59] Speaker 03: So why isn't that what they were talking about as opposed to having the LUS right on the phone? [00:15:10] Speaker 02: Well, remember, the context here is there's two specific disclosures of the Board of Library. [00:15:18] Speaker 02: One was this API download point here. [00:15:21] Speaker 02: And I think that was the bulk of the discussion we had this morning was on the API download. [00:15:25] Speaker 02: And the Martian Reference is clear that it is the phone that's the master. [00:15:31] Speaker 02: In fact, the Martian Reference never says the laptop's the master. [00:15:34] Speaker 02: It's the phone that's the master. [00:15:35] Speaker 02: It's all about the phone, this thing. [00:15:38] Speaker 02: The whole point of Martian is that the phone [00:15:40] Speaker 02: And how do I share that call service? [00:15:42] Speaker 02: And it's all done in the context of this genie technology. [00:15:45] Speaker 03: But I thought you were saying that, no, it's not just all about the phone. [00:15:49] Speaker 03: The phone is one possible master. [00:15:51] Speaker 02: Well, no, the phone is the only, in terms of disclosure, Marcia, the only disclosure about it is the phone is the master. [00:15:59] Speaker 02: And sort of the debate we're having is, does it have a lookup service? [00:16:02] Speaker 02: That was really the debate that we're having. [00:16:04] Speaker 02: Because they rely on figure four that you mentioned. [00:16:06] Speaker 02: And true, that is true that figure four shows a laptop. [00:16:09] Speaker 02: with the lookup service. [00:16:10] Speaker 02: But remember, figure four, you've got to be careful, because figure four shows the call service API on a laptop. [00:16:19] Speaker 02: But we know that the call service API is on the phone. [00:16:23] Speaker 02: And it doesn't show the call service API. [00:16:25] Speaker 03: Yeah, but I hate to call 2001 the old days, but today, two years ago, is the old days. [00:16:32] Speaker 03: But I don't recall your phone being able to hook up to your general [00:16:38] Speaker 03: contacts that were on your computer. [00:16:42] Speaker 02: The experts looked at this, and frankly, the second basis, and maybe the question goes to the second ground the board relied on, which is the specific disclosure in Martian that says, when the phone connects to the network, all the devices publish their services. [00:17:04] Speaker 02: And the board found our expert [00:17:07] Speaker 02: reference that. [00:17:07] Speaker 02: And our experts said one of our experts would understand that disclosure to mean that the lookup service is on the phone. [00:17:13] Speaker 02: And why is that? [00:17:15] Speaker 02: Because when the phone connects, the phone says, OK, I'm here. [00:17:19] Speaker 02: I'm going to run this show now. [00:17:21] Speaker 02: Tell me about what you can offer so I can put it in the lookup service. [00:17:24] Speaker 02: This is what our experts said, and the board credited that. [00:17:27] Speaker 02: And that's, again, another specific disclosure in Marston. [00:17:31] Speaker 02: Our experts said one of our experts would understand that to mean the lookup service is on the phone. [00:17:36] Speaker 02: This is why they're on the same site. [00:17:39] Speaker 03: It's all about the phone. [00:17:42] Speaker 02: That's right. [00:17:43] Speaker 02: And remember, this is all done in the concept of the genie specification, which was made of record. [00:17:47] Speaker 02: The board relied on the genie specification. [00:17:49] Speaker 02: Again, another piece of substantial evidence to consider here, which says there could be multiple lookup services in the system. [00:17:56] Speaker 02: So the fact that this figure four shows that one lookup service, I don't think it gets you where you need to go. [00:18:02] Speaker 02: It gets them where they need to go on this point. [00:18:04] Speaker 02: The dispute really was, does the phone have a lookup service? [00:18:08] Speaker 02: And these two specific disclosures in March end said that they did. [00:18:12] Speaker 02: And our expert concluded that this API was, in fact, a GD proxy object. [00:18:18] Speaker 02: And that was a critical point of our expert's testimony or credit. [00:18:23] Speaker 02: Because once you conclude that it's a GD proxy object, you die. [00:18:28] Speaker 02: Because everybody agrees that GD proxy objects come from a lookup service. [00:18:32] Speaker 02: So you have the API downloaded, and then once you find that it's a Genie proxy object, that's over. [00:18:37] Speaker 02: We're done here. [00:18:39] Speaker 02: And the fact is, again and again and again in Martian, they talk about the Genie API. [00:18:46] Speaker 02: They talk about Genie API. [00:18:47] Speaker 02: They don't say proxy. [00:18:48] Speaker 02: That's true. [00:18:49] Speaker 02: But they say Genie API. [00:18:51] Speaker 02: What do they mean by that? [00:18:53] Speaker 02: In the context of Genie technology, of course it's a Genie proxy. [00:18:56] Speaker 02: And that's what our experts said, and that's what the board credited. [00:18:59] Speaker 03: So the board didn't rely on Genie. [00:19:01] Speaker 03: Genie as another prior reference, it just relied on Genie as the background in the art at the time, which would help understand Marsha. [00:19:12] Speaker 02: Correct. [00:19:12] Speaker 02: And again, it goes to this notion that, you know, when one works in the art, looking at this, they're coming with their knowledge, their experience, and their skill. [00:19:20] Speaker 02: They know about the Bluetooth SPAC, they know about the Genie SPAC, and when they read Marsha, what are they drawing in their mind? [00:19:27] Speaker 02: And that's really [00:19:28] Speaker 02: You're definitely right that it wasn't a combination with Genie. [00:19:30] Speaker 02: They just referenced it. [00:19:32] Speaker 02: One would understand that multiple lookup services could be in the system. [00:19:37] Speaker 02: Just because figure four shows one on the laptop, that's one embodiment, doesn't mean you could have multiple, which addresses their sub-PicoNet theory that they have. [00:19:47] Speaker 03: Is it possible that the control API could be anything other than a Genie proxy object? [00:19:53] Speaker 02: You know, our experts said no, based on the disclosure of margin and what our students are going to understand. [00:19:59] Speaker 02: That is, you know, they take the position that no, this is just an API, there's nothing to do with Genie. [00:20:04] Speaker 02: But again, when I, you go to the specification and it talks about, again and again, it talks about Genie API. [00:20:11] Speaker 02: And yeah, it doesn't use the word proxy in there, but boy, Genie API, we're talking about Genie technology [00:20:16] Speaker 02: We know that we're talking about the proxies, so download it from the lookup service. [00:20:20] Speaker 02: So that's what our experts say. [00:20:22] Speaker 00: We talk about the expert. [00:20:23] Speaker 00: You're talking about Dr. Aikiai? [00:20:26] Speaker 02: Yes, Dr. Aikiai. [00:20:28] Speaker 00: Aikiai. [00:20:28] Speaker 02: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:29] Speaker 00: Dr. Aikiai was out. [00:20:30] Speaker 00: He says on 241, he says, a most logical place to implant a LUS would have been on the device, the mobile phone. [00:20:40] Speaker 00: Did the board credit that testimony there and rely on it? [00:20:45] Speaker 02: Yes, the board at A19, A19, A20 discuss the two technical basis and rely on Dr. Kelly's testimony where he talks about the API download and then talks about when the phone connects to the network, everyone sends in their information. [00:21:05] Speaker 02: Those two bases are in the board's opinion and they credit our expert on that. [00:21:10] Speaker 02: Again, you know, this is a factual dispute and we could have this discussion about, you know, does it show this, does it, you know, if it was actually said explicitly that the LUS was on the phone, we wouldn't be here. [00:21:24] Speaker 02: So yes, there is a, there's something that needs the, one board in the school of ER needs to interpret, needs to understand based on reading the reference. [00:21:32] Speaker 02: And the board decided, you know, decided that, yeah, one board in the school of ER would find that. [00:21:36] Speaker 02: And that's the conclusion. [00:21:40] Speaker 03: device can only be the master of a single network, right? [00:21:43] Speaker 02: In the Bluetooth environment, there's one master. [00:21:45] Speaker 02: That is correct. [00:21:46] Speaker 02: That is correct. [00:21:49] Speaker 02: Which goes to another point that the board said that, well, listen, if you're arguing that they argue that the master always has a look-up service. [00:21:59] Speaker 02: And well, if that's true, then we know the phone's a master. [00:22:03] Speaker 02: So the phone's going to have a look-up service. [00:22:04] Speaker 03: So why do they bother talking about setting up Bluetooth as a master? [00:22:09] Speaker 02: The phone? [00:22:10] Speaker 03: Now, why does Marshawn focus on setting up Bluetooth as a master of individual networks? [00:22:17] Speaker 02: Well, I mean, in the Marshawn reference, they make the phone king, if you will. [00:22:21] Speaker 02: And they're explicit about that. [00:22:22] Speaker 02: In fact, there's no disclosure in Marshawn about anything else other than the phone being the master. [00:22:27] Speaker 02: The phone's the master. [00:22:28] Speaker 02: And it's just that the link that's being drawn by the experts and their interpretation of one of the orders of doing art is the fact that the API is [00:22:38] Speaker 02: proxy object, therefore the lookup service is on the phone. [00:22:41] Speaker 00: If the phone's a master, that doesn't mean that the LUS can be located on a computer in the network. [00:22:49] Speaker 00: The phone could still be the master, but yet the LUS located somewhere else. [00:22:53] Speaker 02: So is that a possible scenario? [00:22:56] Speaker 02: Well, yes, I guess that's possible. [00:22:59] Speaker 00: I mean, that's what Marchand discloses, right? [00:23:00] Speaker 02: Well, no, Marchand discloses, of course, that the phone's a master, and figure four shows [00:23:06] Speaker 02: the LUS on the laptop. [00:23:08] Speaker 00: That's what I said. [00:23:09] Speaker 00: That's what Marshawn discloses that. [00:23:11] Speaker 02: Marshawn does disclose that. [00:23:12] Speaker 02: Of course, the way that the board concluded it also discloses the lookup service being on the phone. [00:23:21] Speaker 02: One board member would conclude that. [00:23:23] Speaker 02: That's not explicit. [00:23:25] Speaker 02: We're not saying that that's explicit in the reference. [00:23:28] Speaker 02: That's for sure. [00:23:29] Speaker 02: This is something that the board concluded based on the competing evidence. [00:23:33] Speaker 02: And really, this is what the board does best. [00:23:35] Speaker 02: I mean, this is really what they're interpreting prior art and coming to the conclusion about what it discloses of one of Ordon's skill in the art. [00:23:42] Speaker 02: That's sort of bailiwick. [00:23:44] Speaker 02: And this is exactly what they did in this case. [00:23:46] Speaker 02: It's a very fine factual dispute. [00:23:49] Speaker 02: Maybe they had some good arguments, all right? [00:23:52] Speaker 02: We got some good arguments. [00:23:53] Speaker 02: The board came down on our side. [00:23:54] Speaker 02: And it's just this. [00:23:55] Speaker 03: I'm looking forward to the next time you're appealing from a board decision. [00:23:57] Speaker 02: Yes, well. [00:23:59] Speaker 02: I'm going to quote this back to you. [00:24:03] Speaker 02: But unless there's anything else, that's all I had. [00:24:05] Speaker 03: OK, thank you. [00:24:07] Speaker 03: All right, you have three minutes. [00:24:16] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:24:17] Speaker 01: I didn't answer a question you posed well, and I wanted to revisit it if I could. [00:24:22] Speaker 01: The question you asked was whether the phone could be the master of the broader PicoNet. [00:24:27] Speaker 01: Our position is it cannot. [00:24:28] Speaker 01: And we briefed it as well, and the reason being [00:24:31] Speaker 01: is because the Marchant disclosure talks about how once the API is down, once it's invoked, the call control center, the phone comes in and becomes a master of the sub PicoNet with a device that needs a call control center. [00:24:42] Speaker 01: So the phone being the master of the broader PicoNet would be contrary to the Bluetooth technology that says you can only be a master of one PicoNet at a time. [00:24:51] Speaker 01: So that's why the phone could not start as the master of the bigger PicoNet and have the LUS on it. [00:24:59] Speaker 01: Everyone has agreed that the master of the broader PicoNet will have the LUS. [00:25:04] Speaker 01: The disagreement is who is the master between the parties. [00:25:09] Speaker 01: So because of that, it's important to remember that you cannot have a master of two different PicoNets. [00:25:16] Speaker 01: And the disclosure of Marchand's very clear, even starting on 286, where once the phone functionality is invoked, [00:25:26] Speaker 01: Then, just prior to execution of the API, then you start the new conversation between the phone and the device that wants the call control functionality. [00:25:36] Speaker 01: So there's already a PicoNet in existence. [00:25:38] Speaker 01: The phone comes in and says, someone else wants to use that device. [00:25:41] Speaker 01: So that's the answer to your question more directly, Your Honor. [00:25:46] Speaker 01: Council also said something about Figure 4 that I wanted to flag. [00:25:51] Speaker 01: Figure 4, he referenced how the API for the Call Control Center is with the LUS. [00:25:57] Speaker 01: It's listed in Figure 4. [00:25:59] Speaker 01: Under the laptop, that's true. [00:26:02] Speaker 01: The Gini Call Control API, separate and apart from the LUS. [00:26:05] Speaker 01: It's not in the LUS. [00:26:06] Speaker 01: It's separate and apart from it. [00:26:07] Speaker 01: But that actually makes sense when you look at the whole disclosure. [00:26:10] Speaker 01: Figure 4, if you go to 287, is actually describing what happens [00:26:19] Speaker 01: when the laptop wants to make a phone call. [00:26:22] Speaker 01: That's actually the description of what's going on in Figure 4. [00:26:25] Speaker 01: So it completely makes sense that the API has been transferred from the phone to the laptop that does have the LUS. [00:26:32] Speaker 01: It's clear in Figure 4 that the laptop already has the LUS. [00:26:35] Speaker 01: Then the API comes in because it's using that functionality of the phone. [00:26:40] Speaker 03: But the mere existence of an LUS on a laptop doesn't alter the ability of the phone to have an LUS, right? [00:26:48] Speaker 01: It does, Your Honor, when we're talking about the LUS has to be on the master of the network. [00:26:53] Speaker 01: So again, you can't have two masters. [00:26:55] Speaker 01: And the disclosure of Marshawn talks about how once the API is called and used for the call control, then and only then, after that, the phone becomes the master with that specific device, specifically for the call control functionality. [00:27:10] Speaker 00: Doesn't figure four show that the computer could be both the master and the slave? [00:27:16] Speaker 01: The laptop. [00:27:17] Speaker 00: The laptop. [00:27:18] Speaker 00: Well, in this case, because... It seems to me you're ascribing some sort of physical functionality to a telephone that may be possessed by the computer, by the laptop. [00:27:33] Speaker 01: To answer your question, the master and slave situation, it's a temporal aspect of it. [00:27:39] Speaker 01: We say Figure 4 shows the laptop is the master in the beginning of the PicoNet because it has the LUS. [00:27:45] Speaker 01: Then the phone, per the description of Figure 4, the laptop wants to use the call control functionality. [00:27:51] Speaker 01: Once it does that, it invokes against the API, which is shown in 47. [00:27:54] Speaker 01: So it becomes the master phone. [00:27:59] Speaker 00: Why doesn't that work with the phone? [00:28:02] Speaker 00: The phone comes in as a master, and then the phone becomes the slave. [00:28:06] Speaker 00: It's responding to the call for services from the computer. [00:28:09] Speaker 01: Correct, but in Marchant, the only disclosure is because of, I guess, the state of time. [00:28:13] Speaker 01: The only way to get to the cellular per Marchant is through the phone, because that's the only connection to the cellular network that the whole point of the call control center, that's what you're trying to do. [00:28:23] Speaker 01: So the mobile phone is your only gateway. [00:28:25] Speaker 01: That's why they call it the gateway device, because it's your only way to get to the internet. [00:28:30] Speaker 01: So it can't be the master of both. [00:28:31] Speaker 01: It has to be the master of the individual conversation with the device trying to get to the internet. [00:28:39] Speaker 01: The last thing I'll say is that we believe that this case is analogous to something recently ruled upon in the Fed Circuit. [00:28:47] Speaker 01: Specifically, we think this case has analogous facts to DSS Tech versus Apple, which was decided on March 23, 2018. [00:28:56] Speaker 01: There, the court found that the board's analysis was deficient because it found that the knowledge of the skilled artisan could supply a missing feature from the patent claims. [00:29:04] Speaker 01: We think we have the same situation here. [00:29:07] Speaker 03: OK. [00:29:07] Speaker 03: Thank you.