[00:00:01] Speaker 01: Okay, before we start running the clock, Mr. Woodford, I have a question for you, and that is that the blue brief and the joint appendix are designated as confidential. [00:00:11] Speaker 01: I'm not sure I understand what could be confidential in this, since we're talking about claim construction that is all based on intrinsic evidence, which intrinsic evidence is a public document or publicly accessible documents, [00:00:30] Speaker 01: Is there any limitation on what we can discuss during this oral argument? [00:00:35] Speaker 04: The reason that it's marked that way is not really having anything to do with the information that you described. [00:00:41] Speaker 04: It has some more to do with product information that is referenced from TCS and Verizon. [00:00:48] Speaker 04: So we, of course, have no objection to talking about that openly in court. [00:00:53] Speaker 04: I guess I would perhaps direct the question to TCS. [00:00:57] Speaker 01: Yeah, maybe we should direct that to you. [00:00:58] Speaker 01: The red brief wasn't marked confidently. [00:01:01] Speaker 02: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:01:03] Speaker 02: And what appellants counsel is referring to would be the stipulation of non-infringement and appendix 35 through 39. [00:01:11] Speaker 02: And that was not marked confidential. [00:01:13] Speaker 02: That was delivered to the court. [00:01:15] Speaker 02: So we're fine. [00:01:16] Speaker 01: So we're wide open? [00:01:17] Speaker 01: OK. [00:01:18] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:01:19] Speaker 01: All right. [00:01:19] Speaker 01: Now, you want five minutes for rebuttal? [00:01:22] Speaker 01: Yes, please. [00:01:23] Speaker 01: OK. [00:01:23] Speaker 01: Now you may begin. [00:01:27] Speaker 04: Well, good morning. [00:01:28] Speaker 04: You may have pleased the court. [00:01:30] Speaker 04: This is the second claim construction appeal in this case. [00:01:34] Speaker 04: And as it did with two claim terms in the first round of appeals, we have a district court that added a negative limitation, this time to the term dispatch, which requires that the dispatch specify vehicle destinations exclusively. [00:01:50] Speaker 04: And so what that means is that the vehicle's desired destination cannot originate from anywhere other than this dispatch computer in the claims. [00:02:00] Speaker 01: All right, you focus on that word exclusively. [00:02:02] Speaker 01: It's a great length. [00:02:05] Speaker 01: But it seems to me that the dispute here is really narrower. [00:02:09] Speaker 01: I mean, isn't really the question whether, forget where else it could come from, that it can't come from the vehicle's mobile unit? [00:02:18] Speaker 04: Yes. [00:02:18] Speaker 04: That is where this all originated from. [00:02:20] Speaker 04: Because the way the, and maybe it helps to explain how the accused product works, and that puts in context what the dispute was. [00:02:27] Speaker 04: The way the accused products work is that the, [00:02:29] Speaker 04: the mobile unit, so the app basically, the user indicates the desired destination, that goes back to the server, which we have said is the dispatch. [00:02:41] Speaker 04: And then the dispatch will generate this destination information, which includes the destination, of course, and then sends that whole package back. [00:02:53] Speaker 01: Right, I understand. [00:02:54] Speaker 01: So what you were [00:02:55] Speaker 01: But a lot of the brief is on the fact that it can't really be exclusive because we've got this host component, or maybe there's a third party who designates to the dispatch where the vehicle should go. [00:03:10] Speaker 01: So if, and your friend on the other side said maybe we ought to just agree to take the word exclusive out of the construction, and then we'll get to what the real dispute is. [00:03:21] Speaker 01: And so am I wrong that the real question we have here is whether or not this particular configuration, which is it comes from the vehicle's mobile unit back to the server before the dispatcher sends out the information, that that's really the question of whether the claim is broad enough to cover that, right? [00:03:43] Speaker 04: That is the question. [00:03:44] Speaker 04: But the reason the district court had to use the word exclusively is because I think the district court felt that [00:03:51] Speaker 04: carving out that it can come from external sources, like it describes in the patent host, the driver in one instance, and then from third parties, inputs from outside the dispatch. [00:04:04] Speaker 04: If the district court were to have said, well, it can come from all of those sources, the only thing it can come from is the driver, which, by the way, conflicts with an embodiment in the patent. [00:04:14] Speaker 04: Apparently, that would have been going too far, perhaps. [00:04:16] Speaker 04: So that's why the district court, without anybody's prompting, [00:04:20] Speaker 04: just put the word exclusively in there to make it clear that these external sources, one of which would be the vehicle, the mobile unit, cannot be providing the idea or originate where the destination is. [00:04:35] Speaker 04: So I think that's how we've got here. [00:04:38] Speaker 04: No one asked for the word exclusively. [00:04:41] Speaker 04: That is something that the district court did entirely on its own. [00:04:43] Speaker 01: OK, what embodiment in the patent, where precisely in the patent are you pointing us to say that there is an embodiment that contemplates that the mobile unit in the vehicle identifies or specifies the destination? [00:05:04] Speaker 04: Sure. [00:05:05] Speaker 04: It is on column 11. [00:05:08] Speaker 04: OK, to the appendix. [00:05:10] Speaker 04: That would be? [00:05:13] Speaker 04: That is page 76. [00:05:15] Speaker 01: All right, where? [00:05:26] Speaker 04: Down on line 58 in column 11. [00:05:31] Speaker 04: It starts out by saying that a feature of the present invention is that the operator of the vehicle may input information into the mobile unit 42 when it's at a destination. [00:05:43] Speaker 04: Then it talks about using input device 106, which, if you look at the figure, is a keypad that is attached to the mobile unit. [00:05:50] Speaker 01: Yeah, but isn't that just input? [00:05:53] Speaker 01: I mean, your friend on the other side is going to say that what that is is actually just storing in memory that particular location once you've gotten there, the purposes of going back. [00:06:11] Speaker 04: Exactly. [00:06:12] Speaker 04: That's exactly what it's doing. [00:06:13] Speaker 04: It's you're inputting the destination. [00:06:15] Speaker 04: It's being stored. [00:06:16] Speaker 03: I thought you were inputting destination information, though. [00:06:19] Speaker 03: It doesn't say you're inputting destination information. [00:06:23] Speaker 04: But you're inputting a destination, which is a form of destination information. [00:06:28] Speaker 03: I don't know. [00:06:29] Speaker 03: I mean, you can read this, and I'm sure your friend's going to read it a different way, but it seems like this is already when the trip is in route, and you've already got the destination information from [00:06:41] Speaker 03: the dispatch, I don't read this as inputting a new destination. [00:06:46] Speaker 04: Well, let me go a little bit further down and I think it'll clarify. [00:06:50] Speaker 01: Let me read the whole section that I'm looking at. [00:06:53] Speaker 01: It says the operator may enter the position of the particular destination based upon the position of the vehicle determined by the mobile positioning receiver. [00:07:01] Speaker 01: The position of the destination may be stored in memory along with an identification of that destination [00:07:06] Speaker 01: dispatch can then use the accurate position information for that destination in generating destination information for future trips. [00:07:17] Speaker 01: So I don't understand how that says that the mobile unit is actually identifying the future destination. [00:07:26] Speaker 01: It's still dispatch that's going to specify the destination, right? [00:07:30] Speaker 04: They both do. [00:07:31] Speaker 04: And I think maybe that's where some of this... How do they both do it? [00:07:33] Speaker 03: I mean, that's saying for further destination generation from the dispatch, this will be helpful information. [00:07:42] Speaker 03: But they're not generating the destination for this trip or for that future trip. [00:07:48] Speaker 04: So there's two concepts here. [00:07:51] Speaker 04: There is the generation of destination information, but there's also where that idea originates for the destination. [00:07:57] Speaker 04: And so what happens is these other sources, including here at stored in memory, provided to the dispatch, that is given to the dispatch. [00:08:04] Speaker 04: Then the dispatch takes that information and generates destination information. [00:08:09] Speaker 04: And then that's sent to the mobile unit. [00:08:12] Speaker ?: OK. [00:08:12] Speaker 03: Let's assume I don't agree with your reading of that passage. [00:08:15] Speaker 00: Let's look at, to go on to Judge Hughes's points, let's look at column six. [00:08:23] Speaker 00: This is on appendix 73. [00:08:29] Speaker 00: And I guess we first start off with the fact that this invention is designed to provide a time of arrival. [00:08:40] Speaker 00: That's basically what its basic function. [00:08:44] Speaker 00: So if we look at column six, and this is line four or three, it says, the factors used to calculate expected time of arrival. [00:08:53] Speaker 00: And I guess that means the factors are identified a little bit up. [00:08:58] Speaker 00: But what it means is whether, [00:08:59] Speaker 00: accidents, road closures, those factors may be provided to the mobile unit from dispatch or generated locally at the vehicle. [00:09:11] Speaker 00: Now, if you generate this, if you generate destination information and understanding generate to mean to create at the vehicle, then we're talking about the mobile unit, correct? [00:09:25] Speaker 04: I missed the last part of that question. [00:09:27] Speaker 00: OK. [00:09:28] Speaker 00: If the information, destination information, or the factors that are used for destination information is generated locally at vehicle, that's what it says, locally at vehicle, we're talking about the mobile unit. [00:09:43] Speaker 00: Yes. [00:09:44] Speaker 00: OK. [00:09:44] Speaker 00: Now go back up to column 5, line 54, beginning of that paragraph, there describes what [00:09:54] Speaker 00: destination information is, the factors that constitute destination information. [00:10:00] Speaker 00: So am I correct to say that these factors can also be generated locally at a vehicle? [00:10:07] Speaker 00: And what I'm picturing here is the truck driver to stop and say, well, the bridge had just washed out. [00:10:14] Speaker 00: I'm going to go around the bridge. [00:10:16] Speaker 00: I'm going to go down to this little town and back over there. [00:10:19] Speaker 00: And the driver can create a waypoint to get out of that particular situation. [00:10:25] Speaker 00: Is that correct? [00:10:26] Speaker 00: Is that understanding correct? [00:10:28] Speaker 04: That is correct. [00:10:29] Speaker 04: The claims do not exclude that, and certainly the description allows for that to happen. [00:10:35] Speaker 04: The destination information is actually what is included in destination information is described on column three. [00:10:42] Speaker 03: Is there a claim instruction for destination information? [00:10:44] Speaker 04: There is not. [00:10:46] Speaker 04: But destination information includes destinations, of course, but then it includes waypoints, average travel speeds, it can include a whole host of things. [00:10:54] Speaker 04: The claims only require that destination information be generated by the dispatch. [00:10:58] Speaker 04: And it only specifies that it include two waypoints. [00:11:03] Speaker 00: Does the destination information, and you can clear this point of confusion for me, destination information also includes, has to include, the destination itself, right? [00:11:16] Speaker 00: Like Cleveland. [00:11:18] Speaker 04: The claims do not require that. [00:11:20] Speaker 04: Now remember, the irony of all of this is in the last appeal, [00:11:23] Speaker 04: It was about waypoints. [00:11:26] Speaker 04: And the District Court, CCS, and Verizon said that the dispatch cannot specify the final destination. [00:11:33] Speaker 04: That was excluded from the construction. [00:11:36] Speaker 04: So that's how they read the specification previously. [00:11:39] Speaker 04: That got reversed. [00:11:40] Speaker 04: And now we're back, and they're saying, well, OK, I'm reading the specification again. [00:11:45] Speaker 04: And not only does the dispatch have to include the destination, which of course it can, but it has to do so exclusively. [00:11:52] Speaker 04: So that's where we've been in this case. [00:11:54] Speaker 04: The first time around. [00:11:55] Speaker 03: Did you just say that the last time around, the district court said it couldn't generate the final destination, or just that the final destination wasn't a waypoint? [00:12:06] Speaker 04: That the waypoints couldn't be a final destination. [00:12:09] Speaker 03: Right. [00:12:09] Speaker 03: Sorry, I misheard you. [00:12:10] Speaker 03: I thought you said that these claims, he interpreted them to say that this didn't generate the final destination. [00:12:17] Speaker 03: No, just that way. [00:12:17] Speaker 03: Clearly, it generates a final destination. [00:12:19] Speaker 03: There is a dispute over whether a final destination was a waypoint or not. [00:12:24] Speaker 04: True. [00:12:24] Speaker 04: And it can. [00:12:25] Speaker 04: The claims do not require the final destination. [00:12:29] Speaker 04: It just requires two waypoints, one of which can be the final destination. [00:12:33] Speaker 04: Just technically reading the claim language, that's how it's written. [00:12:36] Speaker 01: Did you ask the district court to construe or explain the term specify in its construction? [00:12:44] Speaker 04: We didn't, because that wasn't really [00:12:46] Speaker 04: That wasn't something that was briefed. [00:12:49] Speaker 01: Do you think the word's meaningful? [00:12:50] Speaker 01: Well, it wasn't briefed because you didn't ask for it to be briefed, right? [00:12:54] Speaker 01: I mean, is the word specified meaningful to the construction? [00:12:59] Speaker 04: We think so. [00:13:00] Speaker 04: I mean, it specifies exclusively. [00:13:01] Speaker 04: Yes, we think that's meaningful to the construction. [00:13:03] Speaker 01: Well, do you read the word specify, separate from the word exclusively, to have any meaning? [00:13:11] Speaker 04: I believe so. [00:13:12] Speaker 04: I believe it does have a meaning. [00:13:13] Speaker 01: And what's your interpretation of the word specify? [00:13:16] Speaker 04: that it would identify, that it would indicate what the destination would be. [00:13:21] Speaker 01: OK. [00:13:21] Speaker 01: You're into your rebuttal time. [00:13:22] Speaker 01: You want to reserve it? [00:13:24] Speaker 04: I will. [00:13:31] Speaker 02: May it please the court. [00:13:32] Speaker 02: Let me just follow up that last question from Your Honor O'Malley. [00:13:35] Speaker 02: Specified does have meaning. [00:13:38] Speaker 02: It has meaning and specification. [00:13:39] Speaker 02: It has ordinary meaning and ordinary parlance of the use of that term. [00:13:43] Speaker 02: And that was the term we used in [00:13:46] Speaker 02: appellee's proposed construction to the lower court. [00:13:49] Speaker 02: And it means in everyday parlance to specify is to state a fact or requirement clearly and precisely. [00:13:56] Speaker 02: And that's what the dispatch does. [00:13:59] Speaker 02: It receives inputs from sources. [00:14:02] Speaker 02: The patent talks about at the dispatch, there's a computer. [00:14:06] Speaker 02: And a human user can input destination information. [00:14:10] Speaker 02: But what the patent's clear about is that the dispatch generates destination information [00:14:14] Speaker 02: and thereby specifies which vehicle will go to which destination. [00:14:21] Speaker 02: That's the whole point of a description. [00:14:23] Speaker 00: But the information that's inputted, that you just described, that can be inputted at the local device too, correct? [00:14:30] Speaker 00: Or the mobile device? [00:14:32] Speaker 02: The patent talks about destination information distinct from any other type of information. [00:14:39] Speaker 02: So the patent talks about that a vehicle operator can input information [00:14:44] Speaker 02: into the mobile unit. [00:14:46] Speaker 02: It doesn't talk about the vehicle operator can input destination information. [00:14:52] Speaker 00: And you already discussed... The operator can input what? [00:14:56] Speaker 02: Well, I believe it was the Colony 11, where that's where the instance in the patent where it talks about the vehicle operator already being at a destination that was specified by the dispatch, where that vehicle operator at that destination... Well, let's look at the citation that I [00:15:13] Speaker 00: I pointed here, your phone. [00:15:15] Speaker 00: And this is back on 73.6. [00:15:17] Speaker 00: It says that the factors at the very top, line tier three, the factors used to calculate expected time arrival may be provided to the mobile unit from dispatch or generated locally vehicles. [00:15:34] Speaker 00: So it can be done two ways. [00:15:36] Speaker 00: The factors can be done two ways. [00:15:38] Speaker 00: They can either be provided to the unit or generated locally at the vehicle. [00:15:44] Speaker 00: If you generate locally at the vehicle, who's inputting that information? [00:15:50] Speaker 02: The pad doesn't say. [00:15:51] Speaker 02: It can be. [00:15:52] Speaker 02: Well, somebody is. [00:15:53] Speaker 02: Sure. [00:15:53] Speaker 02: It says it right there, but there is a distinction. [00:15:55] Speaker 00: So if somebody is inputting at the vehicle, then it cannot be the case that the dispatch exclusively [00:16:02] Speaker 00: provides destination information. [00:16:04] Speaker 01: Is there a difference between destination information and calculation of arrival time? [00:16:10] Speaker 02: Absolutely. [00:16:11] Speaker 02: So let's just go back to column three, which is appendix 72. [00:16:14] Speaker 02: And we'll just talk about the meaning of destination information starting in column three, line, I believe it would be eight. [00:16:24] Speaker 02: My eyes are just [00:16:26] Speaker 02: It says, well, column seven, destination information may be any information generated by dispatch that facilitates the control or monitoring of vehicle 10. [00:16:36] Speaker 02: It's clear. [00:16:38] Speaker 02: That information that's generated by the dispatch is destination information. [00:16:43] Speaker 00: Well, why isn't that also the case? [00:16:46] Speaker 00: For example, look at line 18, there on column three, host generates destination information. [00:16:54] Speaker 00: and transmits this oral communication. [00:16:57] Speaker 00: So the host does. [00:16:59] Speaker 00: And the schematics in the patent show that the host is distinct from dispatch. [00:17:05] Speaker 02: But that's right. [00:17:05] Speaker 02: But that alternate embodiment talks about that the stated function of the dispatch and the stated function of the dispatch are column two, line 66 to column three, line one. [00:17:16] Speaker 02: It says one function of dispatch is to generate destination information. [00:17:20] Speaker 02: So in the passage you referenced, Judge Rayna, [00:17:23] Speaker 02: It refers to an alternate body where a host has been assigned to perform the stated function of the dispatch. [00:17:32] Speaker 00: It isn't the case that dispatch exclusively provides. [00:17:36] Speaker 00: There are other embodiments, correct? [00:17:39] Speaker 00: And the one I pointed out, even the mobile unit, you can generate destination information. [00:17:45] Speaker 00: That's what this says. [00:17:46] Speaker 00: Destination information from the mobile unit. [00:17:50] Speaker 02: Which passage are we referring to? [00:17:53] Speaker 00: Problem six, starting at line two. [00:17:57] Speaker 00: The factors used to calculate, and above it's got the factors, time arrival, fog, weather, accidents. [00:18:05] Speaker 00: Those factors used to calculate expected time arrival may be provided to the mobile unit from dispatch. [00:18:12] Speaker 00: It may be, or it says, or generate locally at the vehicle. [00:18:16] Speaker 02: That's correct, but that is not the destination. [00:18:19] Speaker 02: The destination is specified by the dispatch. [00:18:22] Speaker 00: But what's important here... But is this destination information, correct? [00:18:25] Speaker 03: Is your view that that's not destination information? [00:18:28] Speaker 03: Well... Is the problem here we have no construction of what destination information is? [00:18:32] Speaker 02: Well, my view is that the patent says destination information is that information generated by dispatch. [00:18:40] Speaker 03: That's not answering the question because I think that's true that [00:18:43] Speaker 03: these lines at the bottom of page 5 and the top of line 6 talk about things [00:18:50] Speaker 03: that might be destination information and then they said they can be generated by the car but you could also argue those are factors relating to time of arrival but specific destination information and again if we look at the clause and claim one of the patent is actual destination information specifying a plurality of waypoints. [00:19:13] Speaker 03: So if I'm reading that passage it seems to me the better argument is [00:19:17] Speaker 03: destination information is specific waypoints and not expanded to factors like fog, delay, and stuff like that. [00:19:26] Speaker 03: We don't have any claim construction on destination information. [00:19:30] Speaker 02: That's correct. [00:19:31] Speaker 02: That's correct. [00:19:32] Speaker 02: The issue before the Court is the proper construction of dispatch, and dispatch is at a base, must specify the destination for the vehicle. [00:19:44] Speaker 01: I mean, I get where you're going. [00:19:46] Speaker 01: As I understand it, your friend on the other side never even argued that identifying the arrival time based on these other factors was relevant to specifying destination information. [00:20:01] Speaker 02: Is that right? [00:20:05] Speaker 02: Could you restate that, Your Honor? [00:20:06] Speaker 01: That the appellant never argued that these lines talking about calculating arrival time were relevant [00:20:16] Speaker 01: to the specification of the destination information. [00:20:20] Speaker 02: My understanding is that they did not, because that is solely being- Well, they certainly don't in their blue brief here. [00:20:25] Speaker 02: They don't do it in their brief. [00:20:26] Speaker 02: This discussion about the mobile unit is the calculation at the mobile unit. [00:20:31] Speaker 02: What's important is it's not the mobile unit specifying the destination to the dispatch. [00:20:37] Speaker 02: The mobile unit has to use information to calculate the estimated time of arrival. [00:20:41] Speaker 02: And it reports information back to the dispatch so that the dispatch can make decisions. [00:20:46] Speaker 02: It's controlling the vehicle. [00:20:47] Speaker 02: It's telling where the vehicle needs to go, how to get there. [00:20:50] Speaker 02: If there's changes along the route, that information is then conveyed to the dispatch so it can make a determination whether it does it. [00:20:58] Speaker 00: Are you talking, for example, factors such as average speed of the vehicle, the time of day during which the vehicle is traveling, [00:21:07] Speaker 00: travel conditions, prior travel, other information impacting... those, that's destination information. [00:21:15] Speaker 02: Those are all examples of destination information. [00:21:19] Speaker 00: Those are the factors. [00:21:21] Speaker 00: The patent says these are the factors that are used to determine destination information. [00:21:29] Speaker 02: Those are the factors used to determine estimated time of arrival. [00:21:33] Speaker 02: What's destination information? [00:21:35] Speaker 00: That's what this whole patent's about, estimated time of arrival, and that's why you have destination information. [00:21:41] Speaker 02: Well, no, the patent's not all about estimated time of arrival. [00:21:43] Speaker 02: That's one factor. [00:21:45] Speaker 02: It's a cleaned system. [00:21:47] Speaker 02: The whole point of the patent is vehicle fleet management. [00:21:51] Speaker 02: It's dispatch-based vehicle fleet management, including the improvement of prior dispatch systems [00:21:59] Speaker 02: is this estimated time of arrival limitation. [00:22:01] Speaker 02: That's not the invention. [00:22:03] Speaker 02: The invention is the claim system. [00:22:04] Speaker 02: It's a claim method to get a vehicle to a specified destination and then allowing the vehicle to calculate estimated time of arrivals so that could be fed back to the dispatch if that vehicle is going to be late. [00:22:17] Speaker 02: So the mobile unit generates also late information, and that late information is communicated back to the dispatch so the dispatch can make a determination [00:22:28] Speaker 02: whether the vehicle needs to go to another destination or make calls to customers. [00:22:32] Speaker 02: But the fundamental construct of what a dispatch is, there's an ordinary parlance for dispatch. [00:22:38] Speaker 00: I guess I was just referring to, for example, the abstract. [00:22:41] Speaker 00: The first sentence is, this is a system for determining an expected time arrival of a vehicle equipped with a mobile unit. [00:22:50] Speaker 00: Then it goes on and talks about generation of destination information. [00:22:54] Speaker 00: But all the destination of information ultimately is designed to do is [00:22:58] Speaker 00: is to give this estimated time of arrival. [00:23:02] Speaker 00: But assuming that there's more, I think your opponent did say that there's other embodiments. [00:23:06] Speaker 00: And he pointed to some in the pen. [00:23:10] Speaker 00: The other one was on column 11, if I'm correct. [00:23:15] Speaker 00: And those also have other, have destination information coming from sources other than the dispatch. [00:23:24] Speaker 00: And that's what we're looking at here. [00:23:25] Speaker 00: I mean, the construction here, the claim construction problem is that the court inserted the word exclusive. [00:23:33] Speaker 00: And nobody argued that. [00:23:35] Speaker 00: It's not found in the patent. [00:23:37] Speaker 00: And it does matter, because now the claim has been limited to say that only, nobody else, no other source can provide destination information. [00:23:51] Speaker 00: But the patent belies that. [00:23:53] Speaker 02: Well, let me address then that concern of yours. [00:23:57] Speaker 02: In the abstract, which you reference to, it goes on to state that the dispatch generates destination information for the vehicle. [00:24:03] Speaker 02: The destination information specifying at least one destination. [00:24:08] Speaker 02: That's at least what it has to do. [00:24:10] Speaker 01: Now, can you go... Can you explain to me the relationship between the host and the dispatch? [00:24:18] Speaker 02: That's in column three of the PAD. [00:24:19] Speaker 02: That just talks about where... Figure five. [00:24:23] Speaker 02: of column three, and it's associated with figure one and figure two. [00:24:26] Speaker 01: Oh, figure one, I'm sorry. [00:24:27] Speaker 02: Column three. [00:24:28] Speaker 02: That just talks about alternate embodiments where the functionality of the dispatch can be distributed amongst other hosts. [00:24:35] Speaker 02: And these hosts are also remote from the mobile unit. [00:24:39] Speaker 02: They talk about hosts. [00:24:40] Speaker 03: So in your view, those are essentially dispatches. [00:24:43] Speaker 03: Those would not be disqualified under the district court. [00:24:46] Speaker 02: That would not be. [00:24:47] Speaker 02: You are correct. [00:24:48] Speaker 02: If it has the function of a dispatch. [00:24:50] Speaker 00: Can you have a host and a dispatch? [00:24:52] Speaker 02: If, well, now the bottom that's described, it talks about the dispatch is no longer generating destination information, specifying a destination, and that's assigned to the host. [00:25:02] Speaker 02: In that case, that host is the dispatch. [00:25:03] Speaker 01: The host is acting as a dispatch in those circumstances. [00:25:05] Speaker 02: And I want to talk about exclusives, since you raised it. [00:25:08] Speaker 02: Judge O'Malley framed the issue correctly. [00:25:10] Speaker 02: What was before the court, in the briefing, the issue was framed. [00:25:15] Speaker 02: What is the relationship between the mobile unit and the dispatch? [00:25:17] Speaker 02: Does the mobile unit specify the destination? [00:25:20] Speaker 02: to tell where they want to go themselves, or does the dispatch tell the vehicle where the vehicle must go? [00:25:27] Speaker 02: And that was the issue before the Court, and that was the issue that was argued before the Court in the King construction. [00:25:33] Speaker 02: And for the first time at oral argument, appellants raised the issue, you know what, even under appellee's proposed construction, we still believe there's infringement. [00:25:42] Speaker 02: And because of that, that's why we believe Judge Stark then wanted to emphasize the point, hey, if between [00:25:51] Speaker 02: between the mobile unit and the dispatch, it's exclusively the dispatch. [00:25:54] Speaker 02: When you look at it in context, that's what it meant. [00:25:56] Speaker 01: So but shouldn't his construction then have said the dispatch as distinct from the mobile unit? [00:26:04] Speaker 02: We thought our construction is consistent with his. [00:26:06] Speaker 02: It would be as between the mobile unit and the dispatch. [00:26:09] Speaker 02: It is the dispatch that specifies the destination. [00:26:12] Speaker 01: Could a third party, like, say Uber, could a third party specify a destination and then the dispatch generate it? [00:26:21] Speaker 02: No, I disagree. [00:26:23] Speaker 02: The patent's clear. [00:26:24] Speaker 02: When the dispatch or even the host generates destination information, that results in the specification. [00:26:31] Speaker 02: It distinguishes inputting destination information, because there's a clause in Clause 12 talking about Figure 6, which is the dispatch. [00:26:39] Speaker 02: It says destination information can be input into the controller of the dispatch. [00:26:43] Speaker 02: And then it talks about then the dispatch generates destination information, thereby specifying a destination. [00:26:50] Speaker 02: Why? [00:26:50] Speaker 02: because the dispatch's purpose is to control and supervise vehicles. [00:26:55] Speaker 02: It receives inputs. [00:26:56] Speaker 02: Those inputs can be the dispatcher receiving calls from customers, and then that dispatcher inputs it into the system so that the next day's service calls will then be directed by the dispatch. [00:27:10] Speaker 02: That's the point of the dispatch. [00:27:11] Speaker 02: Yes, it will receive inputs, but the dispatch makes the decision of which vehicle goes where. [00:27:17] Speaker 02: That's the whole point of this invention. [00:27:19] Speaker 01: And when the host is doing it, it's still generating the same information and sending it over the same signals? [00:27:25] Speaker 02: In column three, it talks about that in one environment, the host can perform the stated function of the dispatch, which is to generate destination information. [00:27:36] Speaker 02: And in that instance, it talks about the host. [00:27:38] Speaker 02: If it generates the destination information, specifying the destination, that is then collected by the dispatch. [00:27:44] Speaker 02: So the dispatch is not generated and then rerouted to the mobile unit. [00:27:48] Speaker 00: Is the host and the dispatch, can they be distinct? [00:27:54] Speaker 00: You've got to look at the functionality. [00:27:57] Speaker 00: If we look at figure one and figure two and figure three, we see a dispatch and a host. [00:28:06] Speaker 00: And from those figures, they're performing the same function. [00:28:12] Speaker 02: Well, no. [00:28:13] Speaker 02: The description corresponding to those figures state what functions are being performed. [00:28:19] Speaker 00: When we look at the description, and this takes us back to your column three, it talks about the host. [00:28:26] Speaker 00: And for example, column three, line 18, host 25. [00:28:32] Speaker 00: And that's the host in those three figures that I mentioned. [00:28:36] Speaker 00: It generates destination information and transmits this information. [00:28:40] Speaker 00: So now we have the host. [00:28:42] Speaker 00: generating, not only the driver or the mobile unit can generate, this is under column six, but under column three, now we also have a host generate. [00:28:52] Speaker 00: And I'm only pointing this out because the district court construed, made a construction here that uses a word exclusively. [00:29:01] Speaker 00: And that means nobody else can generate destination information other than dispatch. [00:29:07] Speaker 00: And the patent relies on, you know, at least I think it does, [00:29:11] Speaker 00: And that's why I'm asking you so you can help clarify this. [00:29:15] Speaker 02: Sure. [00:29:16] Speaker 02: But you have to read the court's construction in context of his order. [00:29:20] Speaker 00: In context of his order, he was resolved in dispute as what generates the... What legal authority is that to review claim construction, we have to read it in the context of an order? [00:29:33] Speaker 02: Well, you're addressing the concern about exclusively, and that was the issue. [00:29:37] Speaker 02: As between the mobile unit and the dispatch, it is the dispatch that exclusively specifies the destination. [00:29:42] Speaker 02: With reference to column three. [00:29:43] Speaker 00: The district court could have alleviated that problem differently, other than just using the word exclusively. [00:29:52] Speaker 02: We believe Pelley's proposed construction without exclusively is consistent with his. [00:29:57] Speaker 02: He said in his order he wanted to emphasize the point. [00:30:00] Speaker 02: because the issue does come down, does specify. [00:30:04] Speaker 00: Did you think he needed to emphasize a point? [00:30:07] Speaker 02: I felt he didn't need to. [00:30:09] Speaker 02: Our construction, Pelley's construction is consistent with using the exclusively, but after hearing during oral argument that Pelley's felt there was still going to be infringement even under Pelley's proposed construction, he knew this was not going to go away and he had to have it resolved. [00:30:24] Speaker 02: Now that's my reading into [00:30:26] Speaker 03: Can I ask you this a different way? [00:30:28] Speaker 03: I mean, I see a little bit of the problem with inserting the word exclusively in here, because it seems like, taking it out of context, it has a different meaning than the district court intended. [00:30:40] Speaker 03: But we do claim construction to no vote, generally, unless we have extrinsic evidence, which I don't think we have here. [00:30:46] Speaker 03: If we understand that the whole point of this is, and we agree that this claim [00:30:52] Speaker 03: It's talking about the destination information not being inputted from the vehicle, but allowing it to be inputted from either a dispatch or a host acting in dispatch. [00:31:05] Speaker 03: Can we come up with our own modified claim construction or just read his doing that? [00:31:12] Speaker 03: Or do we need to send it back? [00:31:14] Speaker 03: Because it seems to me that that's the issue. [00:31:16] Speaker 03: I don't think that there's any real doubt that the district court was getting at excluding all these other stated embodiments. [00:31:25] Speaker 03: He was looking at the question of, can the initial destination information be inputted at the vehicle? [00:31:32] Speaker 03: And that's what he wanted to avoid. [00:31:34] Speaker 03: There may be some dispute about whether the claims allow that or not. [00:31:37] Speaker 03: I get that. [00:31:38] Speaker 03: But if we agree with him that the destination information isn't inputted at the vehicle, then what's the proper claim construction to do that that doesn't rely on this, what seems to be an overly broad sense of exclusively? [00:31:54] Speaker 02: Sure. [00:31:54] Speaker 02: So I guess I do want to at least my position is inputting is distinct from specifying. [00:32:00] Speaker 02: that is a clear distinction that's described in the pad. [00:32:04] Speaker 02: Inputting information, and it just talks about the dispatch. [00:32:06] Speaker 02: Destination information is input into the dispatch, the controller, and it's the dispatch that generates, thereby specifying. [00:32:13] Speaker 02: Now, yes, it is de novo review, but you're applying de novo review. [00:32:18] Speaker 02: Is there an ordinary meaning? [00:32:19] Speaker 02: We submit there is ordinary meaning, and it's that ordinary meaning is as we propose below to the court. [00:32:25] Speaker 01: But I think your answer to [00:32:26] Speaker 01: to Judge Hughes is that we can modify the construction to take into account what the actual implications of the construction were, because you've even proposed that we could take the word exclusively out, right? [00:32:43] Speaker 02: I'm saying it's consistent. [00:32:44] Speaker 03: I think I'm saying the same thing you are that what we both think the district court did, but it doesn't seem like his language matches up with what he intended. [00:32:56] Speaker 02: I see your point, Your Honor, but I also believe that you can also affirm the finding of non-infringement. [00:33:03] Speaker 02: But I didn't want to address this alternate embodiment because... We're way off. [00:33:08] Speaker 02: Can I just refer you to this lines 30 to 32 of column 3. [00:33:12] Speaker 02: It says, for clarity, this description will focus primarily on the functionality of dispatch 20, but it is understood that the host can perform some or all of the functions performed by the dispatch. [00:33:22] Speaker 02: The whole point is, [00:33:23] Speaker 02: You know what a dispatch by the functionality that performs. [00:33:27] Speaker 02: Call a dispatch, a lemon, a line. [00:33:29] Speaker 02: It performs the functionality of a dispatch. [00:33:31] Speaker 02: It's called a dispatch. [00:33:32] Speaker 02: So if a host is performing functionality of a dispatch, that host is a dispatch under the claimed invention. [00:33:37] Speaker 01: OK. [00:33:38] Speaker 01: All right. [00:33:39] Speaker 01: We'll give you the full five minutes for rebuttal. [00:33:42] Speaker 01: We'll restore some since we went over with him. [00:33:45] Speaker 01: But let me start where Judge Hughes ended on that point, which is if we were to conclude [00:33:53] Speaker 01: on a de novo review of this claim construction, because there is no extrinsic evidence, that the appropriate claim construction is that as between the mobile unit and the dispatch, only the dispatch can specify the destination information, then there still would be no infringement, right? [00:34:17] Speaker 04: If your construction says that the [00:34:21] Speaker 01: Mobile unit, that's right. [00:34:23] Speaker 01: The mobile unit can't be the one that specifies. [00:34:25] Speaker 01: That gives the idea. [00:34:26] Speaker 01: Yeah. [00:34:26] Speaker 04: Yeah, that gives the idea of where the destination should go to the, then yes. [00:34:31] Speaker 01: Then you'd still have to stipulate. [00:34:34] Speaker 04: Yes, I believe so under that reading. [00:34:36] Speaker 01: Okay, go ahead. [00:34:37] Speaker 04: I feel like we're hearing talk about this is a fleet management patent. [00:34:43] Speaker 04: We're getting so far from the claims and so far from what the invention was. [00:34:46] Speaker 04: I mean, here, the way the claims are written, the inputs to the dispatch [00:34:50] Speaker 04: are not mentioned and don't matter. [00:34:52] Speaker 04: So where the idea comes from with respect to the destination is not claimed. [00:34:57] Speaker 04: And it doesn't care. [00:34:58] Speaker 04: It doesn't matter. [00:34:59] Speaker 04: And there's examples in the patent where it comes from the host in column three. [00:35:03] Speaker 04: And this is important, I think, to answer the question that was just raised. [00:35:08] Speaker 04: And the language is very important here. [00:35:10] Speaker 04: And this is in column three. [00:35:11] Speaker 04: It says, therefore, it says the dispatch collects destination information from several hosts. [00:35:17] Speaker 01: What line are you in? [00:35:18] Speaker 04: I'm on line 20. [00:35:20] Speaker 04: and transmits this information to vehicles. [00:35:22] Speaker 04: So this is a situation where you have dispatch, and you have lots of companies in this situation where they're using the same dispatch, and they're all sending information. [00:35:31] Speaker 04: And it says, therefore, dispatch can generate destination information or route destination information generated by hosts. [00:35:40] Speaker 04: So the hosts generate it, and so does the dispatch. [00:35:44] Speaker 04: This term generation is not. [00:35:45] Speaker 01: Yeah, but the hosts are specifically defined in the patent, right? [00:35:49] Speaker 01: And there's nothing in the patent that defines host to include the mobile unit. [00:35:54] Speaker 03: True. [00:35:54] Speaker 03: The host is not the mobile unit. [00:35:55] Speaker 03: I find this host argument not very useful, frankly, because it doesn't seem to be addressing the same question. [00:36:00] Speaker 03: I mean, I don't understand why those are different than vehicles. [00:36:04] Speaker 03: And if you have a vehicle that is capable of both [00:36:09] Speaker 03: you know, doing everything and generating its own destination information, what you're essentially saying is that the vehicle generates where it's going to go, tells the dispatch all of that information, and the dispatch just sends it right back. [00:36:27] Speaker 03: That seems to me to be a completely illogical reading of the way this patent is written and what it's intended to do. [00:36:35] Speaker 03: It's providing a central location to tell [00:36:39] Speaker 03: Vehicles based upon a variety of inputs some of which can't come from the vehicle where to go and what their estimated time of arrival is I mean the language and claim one specifically says that destination information specifies waypoints and that comes from from the dispatch right I actually agree with what you're saying and here's why though because it doesn't just parrot back the destination you tell it you [00:37:05] Speaker 04: give the dispatch the destination, it provides a whole package of information that must include the waypoints. [00:37:11] Speaker 04: But as Judge Raina was talking about, it includes all these other things to determine each day as well. [00:37:16] Speaker 03: So for us to group, well, let me just, your definition then of destination information then is far broader than waypoints. [00:37:25] Speaker 04: Yes. [00:37:26] Speaker 03: And that's based on the pack. [00:37:28] Speaker 04: And based on claim five. [00:37:29] Speaker 04: Claim five, it says destination information includes weather and traffic. [00:37:32] Speaker 04: So it necessarily has to be. [00:37:35] Speaker 04: We're deviating so far from the claim language here in this discussion. [00:37:38] Speaker 01: But you did not argue in the blue briefs here, and I don't remember seeing it below, that the factors that go into calculating arrival time equates to specifying destination information, right? [00:37:57] Speaker 01: You never made that argument. [00:37:58] Speaker 04: That's never been a disagreement in the case. [00:38:01] Speaker 04: It's never been an issue. [00:38:02] Speaker 01: Right, you never made the argument that somehow that equates to specifying destination information, right? [00:38:12] Speaker 04: I'm not sure I understand. [00:38:12] Speaker 01: You didn't cite the information in columns five and six in support of your construction, did you? [00:38:21] Speaker 04: Well, I think that information is in claim five, which is asserted in this case. [00:38:26] Speaker 04: It's a dependent claim that talks about weather and traffic. [00:38:28] Speaker 04: being the destination information, including weather and traffic. [00:38:32] Speaker 04: So that was asserted in this case. [00:38:33] Speaker 04: And that gives indication from the claim language that it's broader than just waypoints. [00:38:41] Speaker 00: Let me ask you a question. [00:38:43] Speaker 00: Suppose a truck driver's coming down 9 o'clock. [00:38:46] Speaker 00: He hits the beltway. [00:38:50] Speaker 00: And he looks, he's supposed to go, the unit's telling him, go to your right, go around Reston, Virginia and all of that. [00:38:58] Speaker 00: And he looks over there and all he sees is red lights and he sees smoke coming out of, you know, down over there. [00:39:04] Speaker 00: And over here on the left, he goes around this way, then up by Highway 50, he sees it's free and clear. [00:39:12] Speaker 00: So he decides, I'm gonna go this way, because I know I'm gonna end up being in the same place. [00:39:19] Speaker 00: Once he does that, then I'm assuming that the dispatch begins picking that up, the location of that. [00:39:26] Speaker 00: Has he created a new waypoint at that time? [00:39:31] Speaker 04: I don't know if he's created a new waypoint in the system, meaning it's been entered into the mobile unit. [00:39:36] Speaker 04: But certainly, those are different waypoints than what would have been suggested. [00:39:40] Speaker 00: So then now the dispatch begins to recalculate time of arrival and how other things are [00:39:48] Speaker 00: like that, and saves that for the future. [00:39:51] Speaker 00: It can. [00:39:55] Speaker 04: I believe I'm over my time. [00:39:56] Speaker 04: Thank you very much. [00:39:58] Speaker 01: Any last words? [00:40:00] Speaker 04: Well, I mean, I think the last word would be that really getting back to the claim language, claim five, and ignoring inputs and looking at the fact that the dispatch creates outputs for the mobile unit, I think that is the key to answering a lot of these questions about the dispute. [00:40:14] Speaker 01: OK, thank you.