[00:00:25] Speaker 01: Next case is in Ray Noble Systems Corporation, 2018, 1847. [00:00:31] Speaker 01: Mr. Koster. [00:00:35] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:00:36] Speaker 02: If it please the court, I'd like to make two points today, at least two. [00:00:40] Speaker 02: First, Ferguson does not disclose a second input that modifies a second telephone number during the call. [00:00:49] Speaker 02: The other point is that not all the claim limitations in claim 15 [00:00:54] Speaker 02: have been properly analyzed. [00:00:56] Speaker 02: Now to understand Ferguson, Ferguson is a system that verifies a prospective client list against a do not call or DNC list. [00:01:06] Speaker 02: Paragraph 46 says there are two ways input can be provided. [00:01:11] Speaker 02: The first input is manual. [00:01:13] Speaker 02: The user can go to the prospective client list, select a number, put it into the system, or add it to the do not call list. [00:01:20] Speaker 02: That's the focus of figures five, six, and seven. [00:01:24] Speaker 02: The other input is the list upload. [00:01:27] Speaker 02: And that's what figure eight is pertaining to. [00:01:30] Speaker 02: The important aspect of figure eight is this dialogue box 224, create prospect worksheet. [00:01:39] Speaker 02: If the list is uploaded and that toggle is set to yes, it will process all the accounts that can be called and generate a worksheet. [00:01:48] Speaker 02: And I'll show you that in a second. [00:01:50] Speaker 00: So to the extent you can make your argument without referring to the [00:01:54] Speaker 00: to the exhibit that you brought there, because my colleague Judge Malley cannot see that exhibit. [00:01:59] Speaker 02: OK. [00:02:00] Speaker 00: OK. [00:02:00] Speaker 00: Thank you. [00:02:01] Speaker 02: I will try to do this up. [00:02:06] Speaker 02: If the toggle switch 224 is not set, then the result is shown in Figure 9, which is just here. [00:02:18] Speaker 02: Figure 9 illustrates those accounts in their prospective client list that can [00:02:23] Speaker 02: and cannot be dialed. [00:02:25] Speaker 02: Sections 252, 254 show the accounts that can be dialed. [00:02:30] Speaker 02: Those are the residential numbers that can be safely dialed. [00:02:34] Speaker 02: Section 256 shows the numbers that can't be dialed. [00:02:38] Speaker 02: Those are on the do not call list. [00:02:42] Speaker 02: Figure 9 also shows an auto-generate business phone number icon 264. [00:02:50] Speaker 02: And because those residential numbers cannot be dialed, [00:02:53] Speaker 02: The user can select that icon, and paragraph 95 says it will go out to a database and retrieve a business phone number associated with that account. [00:03:04] Speaker 02: Paragraph 95 says nothing more as to other than obtaining it and displaying it. [00:03:09] Speaker 02: It doesn't say what screens are presented or how it's displayed. [00:03:14] Speaker 02: Now, if the toggle on figure 8 is set to generate worksheets, the result is shown in figure 11. [00:03:24] Speaker 02: Figure 11 shows the number in section 300, some notes information, which the user can refresh while he studies the account. [00:03:33] Speaker 02: The user can then dial the number, and then if necessary, icon 314 can be selected to put the number on the do not count, do not call list. [00:03:44] Speaker 02: It's quite evident that figure 11 shows a single number, a single input, [00:03:52] Speaker 02: And there's no teaching or suggestion that there is a second input during the call that modifies a second number that is displayed to the agent. [00:04:04] Speaker 02: Now, the USPTO would like us to believe that if you somehow select that auto-generate business phone number icon, that figure 11 somehow results, that's not what paragraphs 83 and 103 of Ferguson teach. [00:04:22] Speaker 02: And furthermore, Ferguson teaches that when you upload the list, Figure 11 presents those accounts that can be dialed. [00:04:32] Speaker 02: The auto-generate business phone number is associated with the accounts that can't be dialed. [00:04:38] Speaker 02: So therefore, all the rejections are based on Ferguson teaching the second input to modify a second number during the call. [00:04:49] Speaker 02: Claim 1 also recites [00:04:51] Speaker 02: displaying that second number to the agent during the call. [00:04:54] Speaker 02: Clearly, figure 11 is deficient in that regard. [00:05:00] Speaker 02: The other point I'd like to make concerns claim 15. [00:05:06] Speaker 02: Claim 15 recites limitations of a call handler comprising a processor configured to cause an agent's workstation computer to display a wireless number [00:05:21] Speaker 02: and name. [00:05:23] Speaker 02: Those limitations don't appear in any other claim. [00:05:28] Speaker 02: Those are unique to claim 15. [00:05:31] Speaker 02: But the examiner rejected claim 15 based on the analysis for claim 1 and independent claim 8. [00:05:40] Speaker 02: So those limitations were not properly considered. [00:05:44] Speaker 02: When this was brought up to the board's attention, it was glossed over. [00:05:48] Speaker 02: And now, in the director's brief, [00:05:51] Speaker 02: This is attempted to be addressed on footnote 5 on page 22, and furthermore on text on page 26. [00:06:03] Speaker 02: The text is not very persuasive because it attempts to say that the display the wireless number limitation in claim 15 is similar to a limitation in claim 4. [00:06:15] Speaker 02: And somehow the analysis for claim 4 [00:06:18] Speaker 02: somehow causes this limitation in claim 15 to be obvious. [00:06:23] Speaker 02: The limitation in claim 4 is not similar. [00:06:26] Speaker 02: It displays a consent status of the wireless number, not the wireless number. [00:06:31] Speaker 02: Now, there's also an allegation on page 26 that figure 11 discloses the wireless number and name. [00:06:39] Speaker 02: A couple reasons why this is deficient. [00:06:42] Speaker 02: First of all, the numbers displayed in figure 11 are home residential numbers. [00:06:48] Speaker 02: Not a wireless number. [00:06:50] Speaker 02: But even if you did accept that that number in box or area 300 is a wireless number, you would have to reject the PTO's assertion that that same number is the second number. [00:07:07] Speaker 02: That one number can't be both. [00:07:08] Speaker 02: You can't have it both ways. [00:07:10] Speaker 02: You can't argue that that is the wireless number used to originate the call. [00:07:15] Speaker 02: And then later on argued, figure 11 also disposes a second, another number displayed to the agent. [00:07:20] Speaker 02: It's either one or the other, not both. [00:07:24] Speaker 02: Also, there's an allegation that paragraphs 82 and 83 of Ferguson disclose it. [00:07:29] Speaker 02: That's also deficient because figures five and six don't even display a name. [00:07:35] Speaker 02: Figure seven does display a name and a number, but it's provided by the user. [00:07:41] Speaker 02: There's no call handler causing the workstation to display it. [00:07:45] Speaker 02: So those are the reasons why I think claim 15. [00:07:50] Speaker 02: The rejection should be overruled. [00:07:52] Speaker 02: And I'll probably save the remainder of my time for rebuttal, or if you have any questions. [00:07:59] Speaker 01: We will save it for you, Mr. Koster. [00:08:02] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:08:03] Speaker 01: Mr. McBride. [00:08:16] Speaker 03: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honors, and may it please the Court. [00:08:19] Speaker 03: I'd like to start with a couple of the issues that Noble raised. [00:08:24] Speaker 03: The first is that they say that Ferguson doesn't disclose the second telephone number. [00:08:30] Speaker 03: And I'd like to just start back at the basis for the rejection with a combination over three references. [00:08:35] Speaker 03: The first was Mann, which discloses a telemarketing method. [00:08:39] Speaker 03: And it discloses a call handler automatically calling a party at a first number. [00:08:45] Speaker 03: And then when they pick up, automatically connecting that call to the agent. [00:08:49] Speaker 03: And then they combine those teachings with Brahm, which discloses verbally revoking consent to be called. [00:08:58] Speaker 03: And then Mann also discloses displaying that first number, the name of the call party and their phone number. [00:09:06] Speaker 03: And it discloses displaying that information to the agent during the call. [00:09:12] Speaker 03: And then what they rely on Ferguson for [00:09:15] Speaker 03: is the teaching of having a second telephone number, where the party can tell the agent to revoke consent if you call it the second telephone number. [00:09:23] Speaker 03: And Ferguson explains how to do that. [00:09:27] Speaker 03: If you look at Figure 11, it discloses a new account worksheet that's displayed to the agents when they're going to make a phone call. [00:09:37] Speaker 03: And it has this icon in the lower right corner, 314, that allows the agent to check a box, which will [00:09:44] Speaker 03: I'll put them on the Do Not Call list. [00:09:47] Speaker 03: And this new account worksheet, the board found that it would be displayed when you click on the business phone number icon that's displayed in Figure 9. [00:09:57] Speaker 03: And so that is a second telephone number. [00:09:59] Speaker 03: It's not displayed at the same time as the first number. [00:10:02] Speaker 03: The claims don't require that the first and the second number be displayed at the same time. [00:10:09] Speaker 03: If you don't have any questions about that teaching of the second telephone number in Ferguson, I'll move on to the second point. [00:10:16] Speaker 03: And that's with regard to claim 15. [00:10:18] Speaker 03: Claim 15 talks about displaying the wireless number and the second telephone number to the agents. [00:10:26] Speaker 03: I already talked about how MAN has a teaching of displaying the first number to the agents. [00:10:32] Speaker 03: And that's disclosed in MAN A2699. [00:10:56] Speaker 03: Yeah, A2699 paragraph 38 actually says, the man says, the consumer's name and phone number are already present on the agent's monitor. [00:11:06] Speaker 03: And then if you look at the examiner's answer, the examiner went into fairly good detail about how the limitations of claim 15 were met. [00:11:17] Speaker 03: The examiner first talks about it at A2508, and then it goes into more detail in specifically responding to Noble's arguments [00:11:26] Speaker 03: at A2513. [00:11:34] Speaker 03: The discussion spans three pages, but they explain how Ferguson discloses the second telephone number and displays the name and the phone number for both the first and the second telephone number. [00:11:45] Speaker 03: If you don't have any further questions, I'm happy to yield the rest of my time. [00:11:51] Speaker 01: That's fine. [00:11:51] Speaker 01: Thank you, Mr. McBride. [00:11:52] Speaker 01: Mr. Koster, have some rebuttal time. [00:11:56] Speaker 01: You need it? [00:12:02] Speaker 02: The allegation that the auto-generate business phone number causes figure 11 to appear is inconsistent with paragraphs 83 and 103, which state that the list is uploaded, and for those accounts that can be called, a worksheet is generated. [00:12:23] Speaker 02: It doesn't say anything about the business phone number icon being selected, and that's causing the worksheet to be generated. [00:12:31] Speaker 02: So that's clearly not consistent. [00:12:33] Speaker 00: Does that worksheet have a different phone number? [00:12:37] Speaker 02: It has one phone number per account, and it processes the prospect list. [00:12:44] Speaker 02: Only those numbers that can be dialed are displayed. [00:12:47] Speaker 02: The business phone number icon is associated with those accounts that can't be dialed. [00:12:53] Speaker 02: The second point I'd like to make is in regard to Claim 15. [00:12:58] Speaker 02: And this illustrates the confusion that's been rampant in this case. [00:13:03] Speaker 02: Page 26 of the director's brief says, this argument lacks merit. [00:13:08] Speaker 02: The board and the examiner both observed paragraphs 82 and figure 11 of Ferguson teach this limitation. [00:13:16] Speaker 02: You just heard the PTO now say, no, it's man. [00:13:21] Speaker 02: Man's the reference that discloses it. [00:13:23] Speaker 02: And that's a problem. [00:13:25] Speaker 02: The citation of 2503 to 2504 in Ferguson talks about a different limitation. [00:13:32] Speaker 02: There is a statement on that page that does say, man does disclose a number and a name. [00:13:40] Speaker 02: However, if that paragraph talks about inbound calls, man talks about a system where the user can interact with a website, provide their name and number, [00:13:51] Speaker 02: and then make an inbound call. [00:13:54] Speaker 02: So that is not the wireless number dialed by the call handler, for example, in claim 15 or claim 1. [00:14:04] Speaker 02: So I think with that, those two points are effectively reported. [00:14:12] Speaker 02: If there are no further questions. [00:14:16] Speaker 01: Thank you, counsel. [00:14:17] Speaker 01: We will take the case.