[00:00:00] Speaker 05: All right, our next case for argument is 24-1265 P-TECH versus Arthrex. [00:00:05] Speaker 05: Mr. Evans, please proceed when you're ready. [00:00:08] Speaker 03: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:00:10] Speaker 03: May it please the Court, Robert Evans, here for Appellant P-TECH. [00:00:22] Speaker 03: This appeal turns on the definition of the word secure. [00:00:26] Speaker 03: We submit that it means to fix [00:00:28] Speaker 03: anchor or attach something so that it cannot be moved at its point of attachment. [00:00:33] Speaker 03: The board agreed with the first part but then disagreed with the second part that it cannot move and it entered a definition where it believed under its definition that a secure suture could nonetheless slide. [00:00:49] Speaker 03: We believe that was there. [00:00:51] Speaker 03: The full view case this court handed out recently [00:00:55] Speaker 03: adopted a definition almost identical to ours, not in a medical context, but in the context of electronic equipment. [00:01:04] Speaker 03: And the question was, were two pieces secure? [00:01:07] Speaker 03: And the definition they used to define the word secure was almost identical to the definition we proposed to the board. [00:01:16] Speaker 03: Fullview's definition included the word firmly. [00:01:18] Speaker 03: The board said firmly, added ambiguity, and rejected the word. [00:01:22] Speaker 03: This court both the [00:01:23] Speaker 03: Majority and the dissent in full view, nonetheless, agreed that firmly it was OK. [00:01:28] Speaker 05: I think one of the more challenging aspects of your case is the specification column 29. [00:01:34] Speaker 05: Could you address the language that opposing counsel pointed us to, which explains how you can have a secure, elongated member that nonetheless is allowed to slide or move in a particular direction? [00:01:52] Speaker 05: You know, it actually says, for example, to secure, but then it goes on to explain that that securing still allows movement. [00:02:00] Speaker 05: Calum 29, which line? [00:02:03] Speaker 05: Calum 29. [00:02:04] Speaker 05: I'm about line 50 through 56. [00:02:07] Speaker 05: That seems to me the hardest thing for you to overcome, because it seems to be disclosing an embodiment, which is configured to both secure and permit movement. [00:02:30] Speaker 05: At line 46, it talks about how the elongated member can slide, right? [00:02:36] Speaker 05: And then at line 54, it says how the elongated member can move when pulled in a particular direction. [00:02:42] Speaker 05: So how can you have a secure elongated member that can slide and it can be pulled if it can't move? [00:02:52] Speaker 03: Well, in use, these sutures don't get pulled in both directions. [00:02:57] Speaker 03: You pull them in a direction to [00:03:00] Speaker 03: set the anchor so that the suture doesn't slide anymore. [00:03:05] Speaker 03: If you pull the other direction though, you might reverse the action of the anchor and allow the anchor to be relieved of the pressure that holds the suture in place. [00:03:14] Speaker 03: I think in the opening brief of pages 29 to 31, we put in many quotes from this very specification that use the term secure [00:03:30] Speaker 03: to mean that it can't move at the point of attachment. [00:03:33] Speaker 03: I direct the court in particular to the bullet point that starts at the bottom of page 29. [00:03:36] Speaker 03: Insert component may be secure in the passage of base component to secure elongated members with respect to body tissue and or additional devices. [00:03:46] Speaker 03: Elongate member 106 may be secured with mechanical features, press fitting, screwing, crimping, squeezing, melting, thermal, or ultrasonic, joining, gluing, or any other method as those herein. [00:03:58] Speaker 03: Those are all physical jointers that won't allow movement upon secure. [00:04:05] Speaker 03: Now, if you reverse something so you can unsecure it, well, that's no longer secure. [00:04:11] Speaker 05: I don't think that there is a dispute that the word secure can include a scenario where there is no movement. [00:04:21] Speaker 05: But I think the question is, does the word secure allow for some sliding? [00:04:27] Speaker 05: Your bullet points are well taken that in many instances in this patent, secure is described in a way that would not permit movement. [00:04:36] Speaker 05: But the question is, does this language, for example, [00:04:41] Speaker 05: expand the definition of secure to include something that can be moved and still be secured. [00:04:49] Speaker 03: The language Your Honor pointed me to talks about reversing the direction. [00:04:54] Speaker 03: So if you have something, like if you had a wrench, if you turn the wrench one way you'll tighten, if you turn it the other way it will loosen. [00:05:01] Speaker 03: It doesn't mean you can't secure it with a wrench. [00:05:03] Speaker 03: If you reverse the direction of the suture, and the movement of the suture is what's [00:05:07] Speaker 03: cinching the suture so that it doesn't move. [00:05:09] Speaker 05: I don't understand. [00:05:10] Speaker 05: So look, let's just look at this whole passage. [00:05:12] Speaker 05: At line 44, it says, any portion may be configured to adhere or stick together to resist movement of the elongated member, i.e. [00:05:21] Speaker 05: suture. [00:05:22] Speaker 05: That's what you're describing most of the time. [00:05:25] Speaker 05: But then it says, embodiments may be configured to allow elongated member 106 to slide. [00:05:32] Speaker 05: So I feel like it's saying you could [00:05:36] Speaker 05: create an embodiment that doesn't allow the elongated member to move, which is what you want the word secure to mean, but then it also says you could also have an embodiment that allows it to slide. [00:05:49] Speaker 02: But it doesn't say it'll be secure if you do that. [00:05:51] Speaker 02: It just says you can set it up so that it will move. [00:05:57] Speaker 05: That's true. [00:05:57] Speaker 05: You're not wrong that that sentence doesn't say secure, but then [00:06:01] Speaker 05: The next sentence, or maybe it's two down, does, or the next one, embodiments may be configured with two components of a similar material. [00:06:09] Speaker 05: For example, to secure elongated member 106 when urged together and to allow elongated member 106 to move when pulled in a first direction, but not in a second direction. [00:06:19] Speaker 05: That seems to be consistent with the sliding discussion right above. [00:06:24] Speaker 05: And so I'm not sure. [00:06:25] Speaker 05: That does use the word secure, but also contemplate movement. [00:06:31] Speaker 05: I'm not entirely sure I understand what to do with that. [00:06:35] Speaker 03: Well, I think... Which exact line? [00:06:42] Speaker 03: I apologize. [00:06:43] Speaker 03: When you started talking, I missed your pickoff point. [00:06:45] Speaker 03: What was the first line? [00:06:49] Speaker 05: Well, I mean, we started at about line 46, how a portion can resist movement [00:06:54] Speaker 05: And then by about line 48, where it can slide in some embodiments. [00:06:59] Speaker 05: And then the very next sentence actually uses the word secure and talks about an elongated member that can still move. [00:07:07] Speaker 05: So I'm just reading this paragraph in its entirety. [00:07:10] Speaker 05: And the word secure is absolutely used at line 53 in a sentence that contemplates movement to subite it being secured. [00:07:20] Speaker 05: So I'm telling you, that's my hardest thing. [00:07:24] Speaker 05: I don't disagree with any of your bullet points necessarily, although I don't think all of them necessarily translate into secure must be fixed and not allow movement. [00:07:34] Speaker 05: But even if I grant you those, I'm just worried that the spec has an embodiment that allows movement. [00:07:41] Speaker 05: And therefore, the word securing can mean both. [00:07:53] Speaker 03: Well, I would submit that the word secure has a general understanding, a generally understood meaning. [00:08:02] Speaker 04: How do we know that? [00:08:03] Speaker 04: I mean, you secure a bike to a tree when you leave the area. [00:08:07] Speaker 04: That doesn't mean that no portion of anything can be, it precludes movement of any portion of anything. [00:08:14] Speaker 04: Why is it the normal, that's the way you normally think of it? [00:08:19] Speaker 03: Well, when you talk about securing a suture, you're talking about holding to [00:08:24] Speaker 03: broken parts of a bone together. [00:08:25] Speaker 03: You're talking about pushing a tendon against a bone to create a healing environment. [00:08:29] Speaker 03: If you have movement, the healing process doesn't happen. [00:08:33] Speaker 03: And this statement here, embodiments may be configured with two components of a similar material, but with a different modular elasticity, for example, to secure elongate member when urged together and to allow the elongate member to move when pulled in a first direction, but not in a second direction. [00:08:52] Speaker 03: It's not saying it's secure in all those activities. [00:08:56] Speaker 03: It's saying to secure the member went urged together. [00:09:00] Speaker 03: But what if they're not urged together? [00:09:01] Speaker 03: Well, then they're not secure is the implication. [00:09:07] Speaker 03: They can move not in the first direction, but not in the other direction. [00:09:11] Speaker 03: So they would be secure only in the second direction. [00:09:13] Speaker 03: Go ahead, I'm sorry. [00:09:14] Speaker 04: OK. [00:09:14] Speaker 04: Just a point we haven't covered yet. [00:09:16] Speaker 04: I'm having a hard time understanding how you get around the fact that the prior art reference here, stone, also uses the word secure. [00:09:25] Speaker 04: So does your argument depend on our construing secure and stone in some way that's different than the way we would construe it in the patent? [00:09:37] Speaker 03: Well, I think for Stone, where Stone is in that application, perhaps maybe secure was OK. [00:09:45] Speaker 03: But I don't think the fact that someone uses a word in a particular way binds us, especially when this wasn't a discussion of the prosecution history where the patent owner could have taken a position on it or not. [00:09:59] Speaker 03: You know, a lot of people use a lot of words a lot of ways, and that doesn't, you can wreck a petal on. [00:10:02] Speaker 04: But you're coming here and saying this is the ordinary, this is the general way people would understand secure. [00:10:07] Speaker 04: That's what you said, I think, about four minutes ago. [00:10:09] Speaker 01: Yes. [00:10:10] Speaker 04: So are we, therefore, do we have to assume that when Stone used the word secure in a different way, it was redefining the word secure? [00:10:21] Speaker 04: Well... I didn't see anything there. [00:10:23] Speaker 03: The board said that [00:10:25] Speaker 03: It changed the definition of a posita originally proposed by the petitioner because they didn't require an orthopedic surgeon who had actually done this work in this field. [00:10:34] Speaker 03: And so the posita definition was changed to require an orthopedic surgeon. [00:10:38] Speaker 03: Both orthopedic surgeons in this case said that something is secure. [00:10:42] Speaker 03: Their expert said if you tug it, it won't come off. [00:10:46] Speaker 03: I asked him the question, if you tug something and it's secure, would it come off? [00:10:49] Speaker 03: He said no. [00:10:51] Speaker 03: And my expert obviously says that secure means it won't move the point of attachment. [00:10:56] Speaker 03: And so the doctors who work in this field have both testified that secure means it doesn't move at the point of attachment, in fact. [00:11:04] Speaker 03: And so between that and then full view, now, I agree that stone uses sliding anchors. [00:11:13] Speaker 03: It just does. [00:11:14] Speaker 03: They're like a person. [00:11:15] Speaker 04: You're saying that stone redefines [00:11:19] Speaker 04: the ordinary meaning of secure that is your meeting and your claim? [00:11:24] Speaker 03: Well, Stone is more interested in the overall loop that connects all of those islands together. [00:11:30] Speaker 03: Stone is less directed to, specifically, what is the connection between the suture and the particular anchor itself. [00:11:42] Speaker 03: Their expert said that if you pull on it, he talked about if you use one of those anchors in isolation, [00:11:48] Speaker 03: it was his analogy, and you put a suture through it, and you pulled on both ends. [00:11:52] Speaker 03: He said, well, see, it's secure. [00:11:54] Speaker 03: But in that example, the elongation, I'm sorry, the deformation of the fastener is not what's securing it. [00:12:02] Speaker 03: It's the fact that you're hanging onto both ends and pulling. [00:12:05] Speaker 03: But if you let go of either one, it comes out. [00:12:06] Speaker 03: Well, that's true of every single one of these. [00:12:09] Speaker 05: What has to be secured according to the claim, just so I understand? [00:12:13] Speaker 05: What is it that needs to be secured and to what? [00:12:35] Speaker 03: Well, you secure the at least one leg of the suture when both the first... Securing the at least one leg of the elongate member. [00:12:45] Speaker 03: This is the part at the bottom where you're using a two-component connector. [00:12:50] Speaker 03: And you secure the suture between... Is that the elongate member? [00:12:55] Speaker 03: Yes, the elongate member is the suture. [00:12:59] Speaker 03: Okay. [00:12:59] Speaker 03: And in that one you have a fiscal structure. [00:13:03] Speaker 03: where the suture presses against an external surface of the second component, and that's a two-component fixation. [00:13:09] Speaker 03: So the other word, fixation, is used. [00:13:11] Speaker 03: That's again consistent with the word suture, secure. [00:13:15] Speaker 03: At the top, you have the other use, inserting a flexible fastener, having a passage into a passage in a first bone portion, wherein an elongate member extends through the fastener, such that two legs extend from it. [00:13:30] Speaker 03: And then you deform the fastener while it's in the bone, [00:13:33] Speaker 03: from a first configuration to a second configuration. [00:13:36] Speaker 03: And by deforming the fastener while it's in the bone, it secures the fastener. [00:13:40] Speaker 03: So the fastener's not secure to the bone, and it also secures the elongate member or the suture when tensioning at least one leg of the suture. [00:13:48] Speaker 03: So you pull on the suture, the fastener is secured into the bone, and the suture is also secured to the fastener. [00:13:57] Speaker 03: Because after all, that's what it's connected to. [00:14:01] Speaker 03: That's the only thing it can be secured to. [00:14:04] Speaker 05: All right, well, why don't we save the remainder of your time for rebuttal and hear from Mr. Oliver. [00:14:09] Speaker 03: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:14:28] Speaker 00: Good morning, Your Honors. [00:14:29] Speaker 00: Justin Oliver on behalf of the Appellee [00:14:32] Speaker 00: Arthrex, may it please the court. [00:14:35] Speaker 00: This appeal does revolve around the term secure, including not only P-TECH's incorrect construction, but whether that construction even matters. [00:14:43] Speaker 00: There are four key points. [00:14:45] Speaker 00: First, the claims do not require that the elongate member be secured to the fastener, making the construction argument largely irrelevant. [00:14:54] Speaker 00: Second, even if it did matter, the intrinsic record does not preclude sliding of the elongate member. [00:15:01] Speaker 00: In fact, it describes embodiments in which sliding takes place even though elements are secure. [00:15:07] Speaker 00: Third, the stone reference, as has been discussed already, explicitly states that its elongate member is secure to its facet, such that any argument that the plain and ordinary meaning should distinguish stone simply cannot hold. [00:15:21] Speaker 00: And finally, even if you set aside all of those issues, the claims state that the securing occurs when tensioning at least one leg of the elongated member. [00:15:32] Speaker 00: As the records show, P-TECH's own expert acknowledged that when you pull on both legs of Stone's elongated member, it would at that moment be secure. [00:15:42] Speaker 00: the board independently found that even under P-TEXT claim construction, because of that language of at least one elongate member, meaning one or two, that was an independent reason to find unpatentability, regardless of which claim construction was adopted. [00:15:57] Speaker 00: For all of those reasons, the decision below should be affirmed. [00:16:01] Speaker 04: Can I just ask one quick question? [00:16:03] Speaker 04: Your friend referred to experts to perform these surgeries, and he said that they both agreed [00:16:11] Speaker 04: I don't recall seeing anything in the board decision discussing that expert testimony. [00:16:19] Speaker 00: There is expert testimony on both sides. [00:16:21] Speaker 00: Both of them were surgeons. [00:16:23] Speaker 00: There was discussion of when you put in a suture, you want the suture to stay where it's supposed to stay. [00:16:28] Speaker 00: I think the distinction that's being made here is P-TECH's argument seems to be that if you just pull on one leg of the suture alone, [00:16:36] Speaker 00: that according to it, within stone, it would move and slide. [00:16:40] Speaker 00: But if you pull on both legs of an elongated member, just like if you put a rope around a pulley and you pull on both legs of the rope, that rope is secure. [00:16:47] Speaker 00: It's not going to move. [00:16:49] Speaker 00: Both sides agreed, or both experts agreed, that in that moment when you're pulling on both of them, that it would be secure. [00:16:57] Speaker 00: And that doesn't matter for the construction, whether you adopt one or the other. [00:17:01] Speaker 00: And P-TECH's own expert agreed to this specifically [00:17:07] Speaker 00: Pitex experts stated, when asked about this operation of stone, but if you pull on both strands at that moment, it would be secure. [00:17:16] Speaker 00: His answer, at that moment, that's true. [00:17:18] Speaker 00: That's in the appendix of 2790. [00:17:19] Speaker 00: So there was agreement that you would have to have the suture stay in place, but the distinction is one leg versus two legs. [00:17:28] Speaker 00: On page 45 of the appendix, the board addressed this. [00:17:32] Speaker 00: The board said, look, even if we were to credit P-TECH's construction, that there can be no sliding. [00:17:39] Speaker 00: We look at stone, and we see that when you pull on both legs of the elongate member, it's not going to go anywhere. [00:17:46] Speaker 00: It's secure. [00:17:48] Speaker 00: And under the claim language, P-TECH is focused on the first part of the claim language, which is using the term secure. [00:17:54] Speaker 00: But the claim says, deforming the fastener from a first configuration to a second configuration to secure the fastener and the elongate member, not to the elongate member, when tensioning at least one leg. [00:18:08] Speaker 00: P-TECH's argument seems to ignore that at least one leg argument, meaning that you can pull on both legs to secure something. [00:18:16] Speaker 00: And the board found on page 45 that if you pull on both legs, which is allowed by the claim, stone is secure. [00:18:23] Speaker 00: such that even if you were to adopt the claim construction, it would still find unpatentability. [00:18:28] Speaker 00: So this really doesn't solely turn on claim construction because the board already determined that even if that claim construction were to be adopted, it wouldn't change the outcome. [00:18:38] Speaker 00: But turning to the actual claim construction, the intrinsic record clearly shows that P-TEX construction cannot be correct. [00:18:49] Speaker 00: There was one discussion of the column 29 example of sliding, which is clear that there is a sliding option within this specification. [00:18:59] Speaker 00: I direct the panel's attention to one other, and that is at appendix 62, column 20 of the patent, starting on line 25. [00:19:08] Speaker 00: A long gate member 106 may pass, slide, and or be tensioned through all or one portions, all or more [00:19:16] Speaker 00: all or one or more portions of Fastener 116. [00:19:20] Speaker 00: So we have explicit language in the specification that talks about sliding. [00:19:25] Speaker 05: There is nowhere... It's sliding relative to the Fastener. [00:19:28] Speaker 00: Correct. [00:19:29] Speaker 00: Yup. [00:19:30] Speaker 00: There is nowhere in the specification that explicitly says in a secure position you cannot slide relative to Fastener. [00:19:38] Speaker 00: So what we have is no explicit... Does Figure 84 help you also? [00:19:42] Speaker 00: Yes, it does, and I can turn to that, Your Honor. [00:19:44] Speaker 00: Figure 84, and I think [00:19:48] Speaker 00: Figure 84 read particularly in light of the specification. [00:19:51] Speaker 00: Figure 84 is the embodiment that P-TECH itself relies upon because it is the sole embodiment that shows a deformable facet on 116. [00:20:01] Speaker 00: With respect to the description there, there are two elongated members in Figure 84, 106A and 106B. [00:20:08] Speaker 00: The specification at column 21, line 20 explicitly states that in the second configuration, or the second configuration, obstructs movement of the fastener 116 through the second hole, thereby securing elongate member 106B relative to elongate member 106A. [00:20:26] Speaker 00: So we have a use there of the term secure, 106A to 106B. [00:20:30] Speaker 00: If we were to look at figure 84, we'll see that 106A is simply a suture or elongate member [00:20:36] Speaker 00: looped through a hole in component 126, such that it can slide back and forth. [00:20:42] Speaker 00: And we can also see with respect to elongate member 106B, that it also goes through a hole of the component 126, and it, when pulled in one direction, is gonna get stopped by the fastener, but if it moves in the other direction, it's gonna slide. [00:20:57] Speaker 00: Thus, we can see clearly from figure 84 that there is a sliding relationship between 106A [00:21:03] Speaker 00: and 106B, yet the specification says that those two elements are secure together. [00:21:10] Speaker 00: Where there is a specific embodiment that uses the term secure to describe a sliding relationship, there simply can be no basis in claim construction to preclude sliding from the meaning of the term secure. [00:21:26] Speaker 00: For that reason, P-TECH's argument fails on the intrinsic record itself. [00:21:33] Speaker 00: And I'd note also with respect to 84, one last point. [00:21:37] Speaker 00: And that's that P-TECH's own expert, when asked about this figure, couldn't determine whether or not the elongate member 106B would actually slide relative to fastener. [00:21:47] Speaker 00: When asked about that, he said in the appendix at 394 and 395, I don't know for sure. [00:21:53] Speaker 00: If the surgeon were to pull on one leg, it's possible that it would deform the device 116 into a second configuration [00:21:59] Speaker 00: Or it's possible that the suture would slide within the device. [00:22:04] Speaker 00: I don't know. [00:22:05] Speaker 00: P-TECH's argument relies upon looking at figure 84's embodiment and saying, ah, I can see clearly that there would be no sliding. [00:22:12] Speaker 00: Therefore, I'm going to read no sliding into the specification and read it from the specification into the claims. [00:22:18] Speaker 00: But where its own expert in looking at that figure wasn't sure whether sliding would happen or not, there's simply no [00:22:25] Speaker 00: evidence to support the idea that sliding would be precluded based on the intrinsic record. [00:22:32] Speaker 00: If we were to even go outside of the intrinsic record and look at the extrinsic record, as has already been noted, Stone explicitly uses the term secure to describe a method of securing the elongate member to a tow fastener. [00:22:49] Speaker 00: It calls its elongate member a strand, it calls its [00:22:53] Speaker 00: fastener anchors, and it specifically says at column one, line 36, a method for securing a strand to a plurality of anchors. [00:23:01] Speaker 00: If we were to consider anything in the extrinsic record, which we don't need to because the intrinsic record is clear, it wouldn't be a general purpose dictionary as P-TECH asks this court to look at, and it wouldn't be a modified version of a definition from the general purpose dictionary as P-TECH has done. [00:23:18] Speaker 00: It would instead be stone's usage of the term secure because stone is within this field describing the exact type of elements at issue here. [00:23:27] Speaker 00: A suture and a fastener being secured together. [00:23:31] Speaker 00: Thus, stone itself is evidence of how a person of ordinary scone the art would understand the term secure. [00:23:40] Speaker 05: Okay, thank you, Castle. [00:23:42] Speaker 05: Mr. Evans has some rebuttal time, yep. [00:23:58] Speaker 03: The first point I'd like to address is the actual claim language. [00:24:02] Speaker 03: And if you just pull on two ends of a suit, you're wrapped around a pulley, which I think was the example counsel just gave you. [00:24:08] Speaker 03: He says it's secure because if you pull on both of them, it can't come off. [00:24:13] Speaker 03: But the claim language doesn't say it's secure by any means. [00:24:15] Speaker 03: It says deforming the fastener from a first configuration to a second configuration to secure the fastener and the elongate member. [00:24:25] Speaker 03: So when you're tugging on it, [00:24:26] Speaker 03: The tugging is what makes it momentarily secure. [00:24:29] Speaker 03: The deformation of the fastener is not what makes it secure, and that's what the claim language requires. [00:24:35] Speaker 03: So that example is not apt. [00:24:40] Speaker 03: Secondly, he quoted Dr. Pedowitz on this very thing. [00:24:48] Speaker 03: And Dr. Pedowitz said, yeah, it'd be momentarily secure. [00:24:50] Speaker 03: But then as we quoted in our opening brief at page 56, [00:24:54] Speaker 03: And it doesn't matter which tail you pull on, it's still connected to the anchor. [00:24:57] Speaker 03: That's what I mean by secure. [00:24:59] Speaker 03: So Dr. Pedowitz is saying, looping it over the pulley will momentarily secure it. [00:25:04] Speaker 03: But if you let go of one thing, it'll come off. [00:25:07] Speaker 03: That's not secure. [00:25:08] Speaker 03: It has to be attached. [00:25:10] Speaker 03: And their expert, Dr. Jordan, said the same thing. [00:25:12] Speaker 03: If you tug on it, it won't come off. [00:25:13] Speaker 03: That's what he meant by secure. [00:25:15] Speaker 03: And so that pulley example is a red herring. [00:25:19] Speaker 03: It's also using tugging forces instead of deformation forces to secure [00:25:24] Speaker 03: He suits you. [00:25:26] Speaker 01: What do you say to your friend on the other side that stone is a representation of how a person of ordinary skill in the art would understand the term secure? [00:25:37] Speaker 03: It's a term he used to describe what he came up with but it doesn't limit the word secure to what he described as being his embodiment. [00:25:48] Speaker 03: If you could do that then you could really mess up an art unit by going through and writing papers that use words [00:25:54] Speaker 03: in all kinds of directions, and then people would later say, oh, see what the word means. [00:25:58] Speaker 03: I think every case has to be studied in context. [00:26:02] Speaker 03: Here, if you look at a brief at page 30, they talk about how the spec talks about how an elongate member may be secured at any point along its length. [00:26:14] Speaker 03: That means it can be attached at any point along its length. [00:26:17] Speaker 03: And so the only place where this has been pointed to me is the one initially by Chief Judge Moore. [00:26:25] Speaker 03: where it talks about securing one direction, and it moves in the other. [00:26:28] Speaker 03: That's like a ratchet. [00:26:29] Speaker 03: You know, it'll ratchet up, but it won't come back down. [00:26:31] Speaker 03: Well, it's secure coming back down, but not up. [00:26:33] Speaker 03: It can still move up. [00:26:36] Speaker 03: If you look at that example, figure 83, the spec didn't say that Suture 106A was secure to element 126. [00:26:45] Speaker 03: It said it was connected to element 126. [00:26:50] Speaker 03: And it said that the [00:26:52] Speaker 03: suture 106B that was attached to deformable fastener 116 was secure with respect to 106A. [00:27:01] Speaker 03: And that's because if you tug on 106, it'll be secure with respect to the intervening element 126. [00:27:08] Speaker 03: And so it's not saying that suture 106A is secure. [00:27:11] Speaker 03: It's clearly not secure. [00:27:12] Speaker 03: It's just looped through a hole. [00:27:13] Speaker 05: So what about column 20, counsel? [00:27:15] Speaker 05: Column 20, they pointed to lines 25 to 30, where it says, fastener may include [00:27:21] Speaker 05: flexible bendable deformable configurations for securing elongate member and then it says fastener or elongate member may pass slide and or be tensioned through one or more portions of the fastener. [00:27:32] Speaker 05: So you've got an elongated member sliding through the fastener despite the word securing being used. [00:27:39] Speaker 03: Well you have to realize what the fastener starts out as and it starts out as a fairly flat product and you weave the suture through it and by tugging on the suture [00:27:51] Speaker 03: you deform that fastener, and that motion, that sliding motion, eventually creates enough deformation to secure the suture to the fastener. [00:28:01] Speaker 03: And I'm trying to find a picture of it. [00:28:02] Speaker 03: Okay, here we go. [00:28:03] Speaker 03: If you look at figure, for example, 69 and 70, you see there where you have [00:28:14] Speaker 03: something that's fairly flat, and then when you pull the suture through it, it deforms it, and by deforming it... Yeah, but look at 67. [00:28:20] Speaker 05: 67 is slidable. [00:28:26] Speaker 03: Well, 67 may or may not be slidable, depending on the materials. [00:28:31] Speaker 03: Again, it's what Dr. Tedwood's testified to. [00:28:33] Speaker 03: If these things are greasy and slimy, they'll slide. [00:28:36] Speaker 03: If they're not, they're made of materials that are more tactile. [00:28:39] Speaker 05: But column 20 is [00:28:41] Speaker 05: Referring to figure 67 to 80 and it expressly says slidable and it also talks about different It can be flexible bendable deformable for securing. [00:28:54] Speaker 05: I don't know. [00:28:55] Speaker 05: Okay. [00:28:55] Speaker 05: I mean, I think we have your argument Why don't we move on to our next case? [00:28:59] Speaker 05: This case has taken on a submission. [00:29:02] Speaker 02: Thank you